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The Woman in the Facebook Frat House

professional.wsj.com

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Re: The Woman in the Facebook Frat House

#51
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't possibly be serious. One engineer propositions other employees for threesomes and the other calls a fellow employee a feminist and is aggressive towards her. In ANY organisation on this planet both would more than likely have been instantly dismissed. It is grossly unprofessional to say the least.

You find her accusations plausible. Others may not. She certainly constructed an elaborate internal discourse out of this bearskin rug photo. And seemed proud of the fact that the engineers were demoted or reassigned without even having a chance to defend themselves. Are false accusations or office politics of such an underhanded nature "grossly unprofessional"?

You're really going all-in on this double standard thing, aren't you?

1. Credibility You're take as fact that the accusations are already false, and hence "grossly unprofessional". Which holds pretty much no water, since that this person is making a claim not just about her own knowledge (re: the aggression/harassment in question) but ALSO about what actually was also common knowledge at the time. Let's not leave out, either, that books of length probably don't lend themselves well to 100% fabricated accusations - least of all those which implicate small groups of people and mention them by name. So much for anonymity and character assassination, huh?

On the other hand, the recounted instance the author gives us is being falsely accused of being difficult to work with after a manager refuses to move past aggression.

2. Stated Accusation vs. Perception

"she seemed proud of the fact that the engineers were demoted or reassigned without even having a chance to defend themselves"

You're living in the world of 'seems', rather than the world of facts. Of course, facts can be fabricated, and we can prove that they are in fact false. No one is denying that.

That said, things stated _as facts_ (behavior specified, conversations recalled, timelines constructed, etc -- basically the stuff that makes up this piece and others like it) are going to be better than your world of made up accusations (the stuff that separates conspiracies like the one you're touting here from an actual story). Think _Loose Change_ vs. _All The President's Men_.

But as to the merits of what you've said, I don't know why she 'seemed proud' to you. Joining you - again, temporarily - in your world of impression, you'll find that she had _seemed_ pretty dejected and not the least bit upset that she had to go through her superiors to get anything done about it. The word might be something more like 'relieved'.

3. ASSUMPTIONS

You straight-up assert that these people didn't have the chance to defend themselves, and that's how they were fired. The truth, by your way of thinking, was something that was not let out because they did not have the chance to say it.

And, yet, you insist that others are ranting and, as you put it, 'pointing and screaming'. So let's work out the assumptions you're making, and who's doing any 'pointing'.

I'm not sure that those accused had the chance to defend themselves, that's something you have to admit from the account. But it's definitely not something you can - as you have here - straight-up assume. If that were the case, and these people were 100% innocent as you seem to believe, you can be sure they would have a book deal of their own; although I'm less sure if you wouldn't find some kind of duplicity or targeting then, either.

As well, the facts as given point against you: it's not a conspiracy against engineers. The person who was doing straight-up sexual harassment by her account was a senior supervisor/management or somesuch. It's not, as you put it, the two engineers that this evil woman and her billionaire female ally targeted.

Finally, let's not forget that the account also specifies that Cheryl Sandberg made a point of talking to all the females in the office to make sure things were right. Or could be made right, as was the case here. If you think that any of this points to a world in which the, say, 5% of women in the office lord over the politics and seek to find you and accuse you falsely so that you can be fired, well, no amount of bullshit-detection applied to your posts can save you.

Re: The Woman in the Facebook Frat House

#52
post #19

Mark Zuckerberg and those engineers made this customer service representative a millionaire. She repays them by trashing them in the Wall Street Journal. There is nothing wrong with something "unrepentantly boyish", anything more than there is something wrong with women's only schools. Working class men don't go around apologizing for doing difficult construction jobs, white collar men need to stop apologizing for do…

"unrepentantly boyish" is OK in certain places. Like, a boys' school, or a strip club or something. Our society has decided that work should not be one of those places, and we've enshrined that in law.

Re: The Woman in the Facebook Frat House

#53
post #42
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Mark Zuckerberg and those engineers made this customer service representative a millionaire. She repays them by trashing them in the Wall Street Journal. If you mean she was paid in shares that turned out very valuable years later, thhen she has absolutely no reason to be grateful for them. The only reason she was not paid in cash was that the value of Facebook was uncertain. It could be a success, or it could flop…

Therefore she made "those engineers" millionaries just as much. No. All contributions aren't equal. It takes someone special to write HipHop to compile PHP into C++. Engineers can (and do) do customer service in a pinch, customer service reps can't do engineering. Doug Edwards, Google Employee 59, is more self-consciously reflective about this, recognizing explicitly in his biography that the company would have becom…

Obviously you need to adjust for the difference in salaries. If they still aren't equal, that is not a very well run company. I realize it is naive to epect every salary to be exactly fair, but if the engineers are contributing signifficantly more per salary dollar, they are getting screwed.

Re: The Woman in the Facebook Frat House

#54
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly when it comes to the subject of women's issues in frat boy tech cultures I've seen people on this site post (and vote up) some stupid f'ing shit, but you may have just won the triple crown with this absolute sexist entilted load of crap. I love how you ended it with "male and female" just so you could feel a bit better about yourself in the morning.

You can rant at heretical thoughts all you want. You offer no counterarguments other than pointing and screaming. I want you to recognize that the free speech of the internet means there are men who can and will offer different opinions about these matters. Anonymity means immunity from character assassination over a difference of opinion. After all, who really has the power here? Isn't Sheryl Sandberg the billionair…

You're plainly idiotic point of view isn't even remotely worth a cogent argument, but I've noticed that saying nothing to posts like yours around here is often taken by others as tacit agreement.

Re: The Woman in the Facebook Frat House

#55
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't possibly be serious. One engineer propositions other employees for threesomes and the other calls a fellow employee a feminist and is aggressive towards her. In ANY organisation on this planet both would more than likely have been instantly dismissed. It is grossly unprofessional to say the least.

so you take her account of their behavior at face value? the article makes it sound like sandberg did too and quietly "made things happen" on the strength of that. that should legitimately concern men in tech.

My god, you're right! There is a witch-hunt for men going on by the women invading our industry. Its high time for us to stand up to it.

Re: The Woman in the Facebook Frat House

#56
post #19

Mark Zuckerberg and those engineers made this customer service representative a millionaire. She repays them by trashing them in the Wall Street Journal. There is nothing wrong with something "unrepentantly boyish", anything more than there is something wrong with women's only schools. Working class men don't go around apologizing for doing difficult construction jobs, white collar men need to stop apologizing for do…

Honestly when it comes to the subject of women's issues in frat boy tech cultures I've seen people on this site post (and vote up) some stupid f'ing shit, but you may have just won the triple crown with this absolute sexist entilted load of crap. I love how you ended it with "male and female" just so you could feel a bit better about yourself in the morning.

We are all ever so impressed with how progressive you are.

Re: The Woman in the Facebook Frat House

#58
post #2

I'm hearing a tiny, sad violin.

god. jesus. NO. you've already set the course for the "here comes another HN thread where people act/get pissy" thread, so we might as well. Here goes: You probably can't imagine what it's like - for a female employee to be aggressively pursued by a supervisor for a sexual act, nor can you fathom - the powerlessness of being one of those women who have all noticed this behavior and, worse, - knowing that they can't d…

Taking this article seriously would seem to necessitate dismissing it.

Re: The Woman in the Facebook Frat House

#59
This problem seems pretty circular to me. Girls don't want to join companies like this because it's a boys club, but it stays a boys club because girls don't want to join. I do feel bad for women who wind up in situation like this, and I personally have no problem with girls writing code or managing projects or being involved with the tech world if they want to.

About the things that "suburban boys from Harvard would find cool" so that's why they were there, um, duh. They were suburban boys from Harvard who didn't really have a lot of women around the office. Obviously they're going to put things like that on the walls. Speaking from experience, the only thing dumber than a guy is a guy who is still in college. These aren't mature individuals yet, and while that's unfortunate, they have to be treated differently sometimes.

Here's my problem with the bearskin thing. We have to remember who picked it up and put it on. Everyone was drunk, everyone was having fun. She picked it up and put it on her head and was being funny. I challenge you to find one drunk person, guy or girl, who would tell someone to stop doing something that is funny. The picture sounds like an issue of most pictures that wind up on Facebook after a party. They were taken at an inopportune moment and you wish that no one would have taken it.

Long story short, some guys are dicks, and they have to work somewhere. When they get out of line, the issue should be dealt with like it was. Its unfortunate that the tech world still seems like a boys club, but it's a difficult problem to fix when the people working in the industry don't always see themselves for what they really are.

Re: The Woman in the Facebook Frat House

#60
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand your viewpoint here, because that's more or less how I interpreted the article on my first read through. However, you likely misinterpreted the article. See pnmahoney's response to my comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4150139 (and try to ignore that it's the same pnmahoney who responded angrily to your comment :)

Oh hey, I think you're missing a crucial part here (again :) "I'm having trouble reading this one . . . can someone else help me?" is NOT-equivalent to "I am so closed to this issue that I'd rather demean the point, let's make the industry look bad AND lame. here ya go. ." ...or at least there is a conceivable difference between the second and the first BESIDES just the idiotic joke. That said, I don't mean to imply…

I really did interpret it in the same way as aheilbut initially (i.e., I initially thought that the author was just whining). However, I realized I was probably missing something, so I decided to ask. Fortunately for me, you came along and explained it!

I don't think that aheilbut was necessarily closed to the issue. If I had to guess, he was probably just distracted by the presentation, like I was.

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