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Breaking Bell's Inequality with Monte Carlo Simulations in Python

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Re: Breaking Bell's Inequality with Monte Carlo Simulations in Python

#51
Incidentally, there is a variant of the canonical Bell experiment called the Greenberger-Horne-Zeilinger (GHZ) experiment that doesn't require multiple trials to collect statistics. The GHZ experiment uses three photons in an entangled state rather than two and can produce a result that is incompatible with classical mechanics in just a single observation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GHZ_experiment

Re: Breaking Bell's Inequality with Monte Carlo Simulations in Python

#52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>what are we conditioning on? The local hidden state, but you don't get to set it from inside the universe when you do an experiment (this local hidden state is unobservable). From inside the universe based on this hidden state, everything behave classically, pseudo-randomly based on the local hidden state. But because you don't get to set the local hidden state during your experiment if you want to calculate the pro…

I agree with the sibling comment by eigenket: > Everything up to the [spoiler ahead] in this comment is (as far as I can tell) exactly how things work in standard formulations of Bell's inequality. There's nothing weird or crackpot there. Moreover, to clarify, it's not necessary that the hidden variables can be measurable or that you can set them. So if a system like the one you described must follow the Bell's Inequ…

> -0.001

Should be -0.01 You have added an extra 0, but it's not the point. You can pick any V, but the bigger it is the more quantum like the correlation are.

>secret angle

Also called "phase" this is the thing there is to "see" : It has a definite value for a single experiment, but every time you do the experiment it has a different value. It behaves like a random variable and that's what allows you to replicate the behavior of what QM does by generating random numbers. That's the subtlety that makes it so that Bell's theorem don't apply.

>So this is a device that can measure the secret angle of the photon.

It uses the secret angle of the photon, to give you something observable, but doesn't leak info about the state. ("it mixes trajectory space" so that each trajectory behave the same, but trajectory are independent, each trajectory just cycle through all the possible hidden states (like the seeds of a linear congruential generator) ).

For a definite (monte-carlo) trajectory, the photon will be definitely absorbed, or not absorbed, (or maybe absorbed later), but the simulator has a state and knows unambiguously how to evolve it, you as an observer though will have to define measurements more ambiguously (due to Heisenberg uncertainty principle (but that's not the point here) )

One other way to see what we are trying to do is factorizing the QM integral.

In QM you have proba = integral( wavefunction ),

You introduce a random variable and condition on it by writing it as proba = integral( integral( wavefunction | hidden_state) dhidden_state )

The point being that you can be smart in the choice of the hidden_state such that the inner integral behaves classically : You push the quantum correlation to the outside integral.

If you want to calculate the probability, you use monte-carlo for the outside integral. And classical simulation for the inner one.

But once written in such a way, you realise that if you want to simulate a universe (like Nature does it), you don't have to simulate all trajectories : Any one will do, as they are all independent from each other.

From inside the universe because you don't have the initial phase, if you want to calculate the proba you have to do a monte-carlo.

Re: Breaking Bell's Inequality with Monte Carlo Simulations in Python

#53

Incidentally, there is a variant of the canonical Bell experiment called the Greenberger-Horne-Zeilinger (GHZ) experiment that doesn't require multiple trials to collect statistics. The GHZ experiment uses three photons in an entangled state rather than two and can produce a result that is incompatible with classical mechanics in just a single observation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GHZ_experiment

It's impossible produce a result incompatible with classical mechanics in a single constant-sized observation, because the classical players can get any result by just playing randomly.

The advantage that GHZ has, similar to the Mermin-Peres magic square game, is that the quantum players should win 100% of the time while classical players win less than 90% of the time. This gives much faster Bayesian updates away from classical mechanics towards quantum mechanics as you collect samples (compared to CHSH). But you do still need multiple samples.

On the other hand, seeing the GHZ game fail would be instant total loss for quantum mechanics. If the win rate is supposed to be 100%, and you see a loss (that you can't attribute to noise or something), then in that case a single test would have caused you to totally discount quantum mechanics.

Re: Breaking Bell's Inequality with Monte Carlo Simulations in Python

#54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with the sibling comment by eigenket: > Everything up to the [spoiler ahead] in this comment is (as far as I can tell) exactly how things work in standard formulations of Bell's inequality. There's nothing weird or crackpot there. Moreover, to clarify, it's not necessary that the hidden variables can be measurable or that you can set them. So if a system like the one you described must follow the Bell's Inequ…

> -0.001 Should be -0.01 You have added an extra 0, but it's not the point. You can pick any V, but the bigger it is the more quantum like the correlation are. >secret angle Also called "phase" this is the thing there is to "see" : It has a definite value for a single experiment, but every time you do the experiment it has a different value. It behaves like a random variable and that's what allows you to replicate th…

>> secret angle

> Also called "phase" this is the thing there is to "see" : It has a definite value for a single experiment, but every time you do the experiment it has a different value. It behaves like a random variable and that's what allows you to replicate the behavior of what QM does by generating random numbers. That's the subtlety that makes it so that Bell's theorem don't apply.

That's standard local hidden variable theory. Bell's theorem apply.

The problem is that the device that is used in the article gives the wrong prediction for a beam with 50% vertically (φ=0) polarized light and 50% horizontally polarizad light (φ=90°). What is the ratio of selected photons as a function of the angle a?

Re: Breaking Bell's Inequality with Monte Carlo Simulations in Python

#55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I commented awhile back on another thread that: I think, ultimately, there are only 3 possible explanations for the paradoxes of the quantum world. 1) superdeterminism (everything including our choices in quantum experiments today were fully determined at the instant of the Big Bang), 2) something "outside" our observable reality acting as a global hidden variable (whether something like the bulk in brane cosmology o…

The solution I'm suggesting is that nature does it in the really boring way : classically. It's almost like option 2, but the state is local. This state is local and "inside" our universe, but we can't observe it. (A good analog for thing that are unobservable from inside the universe are seed of a pseudo-random generator). The beauty of it, is just realising that Nature's simulator can be purely local and yet not be…

I guarantee you can't break (for example) the CHSH inequality [1] with such a set-up (assuming I've understood your description of what you're proposing), and encourage you to try (with similar python script).

An easy formulation of the inequality is in the CHSH game section of the same article [2].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CHSH_inequality

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CHSH_inequality#CHSH_game

Re: Breaking Bell's Inequality with Monte Carlo Simulations in Python

#56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The solution I'm suggesting is that nature does it in the really boring way : classically. It's almost like option 2, but the state is local. This state is local and "inside" our universe, but we can't observe it. (A good analog for thing that are unobservable from inside the universe are seed of a pseudo-random generator). The beauty of it, is just realising that Nature's simulator can be purely local and yet not be…

I guarantee you can't break (for example) the CHSH inequality [1] with such a set-up (assuming I've understood your description of what you're proposing), and encourage you to try (with similar python script). An easy formulation of the inequality is in the CHSH game section of the same article [2]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CHSH_inequality [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CHSH_inequality#CHSH_game

In the script I already gave you it shows an even stronger argument than CHSH inequality : Convergence (in law) towards the QM probas : It can replicate all the proba given by QM for any alpha,beta polarizer settings, up to epsilon, with epsilon that can be made vanishingly small.

QM breaks CHSH inequality, this replicates the proba of QM therefore it also breaks CHSH.

Of course I'm not banging against a math theorem wall, I just made some leeway to go around, based on the fact that conditional probabilities are not probabilities. Setting the problem such that measurements/observation are defined as a conditional probability (against an unobservable variable) suffice for making Bell theorem not applicable. It offers a whole class of solution to the seemingly paradoxical Bell Inequalities.

Re: Breaking Bell's Inequality with Monte Carlo Simulations in Python

#57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guarantee you can't break (for example) the CHSH inequality [1] with such a set-up (assuming I've understood your description of what you're proposing), and encourage you to try (with similar python script). An easy formulation of the inequality is in the CHSH game section of the same article [2]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CHSH_inequality [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CHSH_inequality#CHSH_game

In the script I already gave you it shows an even stronger argument than CHSH inequality : Convergence (in law) towards the QM probas : It can replicate all the proba given by QM for any alpha,beta polarizer settings, up to epsilon, with epsilon that can be made vanishingly small. QM breaks CHSH inequality, this replicates the proba of QM therefore it also breaks CHSH. Of course I'm not banging against a math theorem…

If I understand correctly what your script is doing, it emphatically does not meet the challenge I gave above (specifically it fails the "but the state is local" part of your comment).

This is because of the post-selection on line 44. This post selection involves information about the measurement settings of both party A and party B, and is therefore a (very strongly) non-local thing.

To give a more explicit example - imagine I am trying to break the CHSH inequality I linked above. My response functions are set up so Alice and Bob return completely random answers (0 or 1) independent of what they get sent and I add a line to the code much like your 44 except it just keeps the lines where xy = a+b (mod 2), i.e. we filter so that we keep only the trials where we won the CHSH game.

Then we have completely trivially "won" the CHSH game with probability greater that 75% entirely due to this magic non-local filtering.

Re: Breaking Bell's Inequality with Monte Carlo Simulations in Python

#58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the script I already gave you it shows an even stronger argument than CHSH inequality : Convergence (in law) towards the QM probas : It can replicate all the proba given by QM for any alpha,beta polarizer settings, up to epsilon, with epsilon that can be made vanishingly small. QM breaks CHSH inequality, this replicates the proba of QM therefore it also breaks CHSH. Of course I'm not banging against a math theorem…

If I understand correctly what your script is doing, it emphatically does not meet the challenge I gave above (specifically it fails the "but the state is local" part of your comment). This is because of the post-selection on line 44. This post selection involves information about the measurement settings of both party A and party B, and is therefore a (very strongly) non-local thing. To give a more explicit example…

That the subtlety of this post-selection scheme, the state is completely local : By construction (L37) sela only depends on particle a, and (L38) selb only depends on particle b.

The measurement of a only depend on sela (and not selb), and the measurement of b only depend on selb (and not sela). There is no exchange of information.

The universe already has given you the observations it needed to give you by line 38. The simulator only used local information to simulate the universe up to this point.

Like in qm once you have written down your measurements, you compare them to count coincidences. Sela just mean you registered a click on detector a, Selb just mean you registered a click on detector b. The logical_and is just you counting the observations as a coincidence or not, aka whether you got a click on both detector simultaneously. You are free to be as non-local as you want here, it is of no importance with regard to the state of the universe, the clicks already happened or not happened.

Re: Breaking Bell's Inequality with Monte Carlo Simulations in Python

#59

Hidden variable theory: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hidden-variable_theory Bell test: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_test : > To do away with this assumption it is necessary to detect a sufficiently large fraction of the photons. This is usually characterized in terms of the detection efficiency η [\eta], defined as the probability that a photodetector detects a photon that arrives at it. Anupam Garg and N. Dav…

From "Violation of Bell inequality by photon scattering on a two-level emitter" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40917761 ... From "Scientists show that there is indeed an 'entropy' of quantum entanglement" (2024) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40396001#40396211 :

> IIRC I read on Wikipedia one day that Bell's actually says there's like a 60% error rate?(!)

That was probably the "Bell test" article, which - IIUC - does indeed indicate that if you can read 62% of the photons you are likely to find a loophole-free violation.

What is the photon detection rate in this and other simulators?

Re: Breaking Bell's Inequality with Monte Carlo Simulations in Python

#60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I understand correctly what your script is doing, it emphatically does not meet the challenge I gave above (specifically it fails the "but the state is local" part of your comment). This is because of the post-selection on line 44. This post selection involves information about the measurement settings of both party A and party B, and is therefore a (very strongly) non-local thing. To give a more explicit example…

That the subtlety of this post-selection scheme, the state is completely local : By construction (L37) sela only depends on particle a, and (L38) selb only depends on particle b. The measurement of a only depend on sela (and not selb), and the measurement of b only depend on selb (and not sela). There is no exchange of information. The universe already has given you the observations it needed to give you by line 38.…

Ok I think I understand your intention with the code now. Sorry I was wrong before. I think what you're talking about here is what gets called the "detection loophole" in most of the literatire. The idea that if we detect only a small enough fraction of the events then they can be a sufficiently unrepresentative sample that we think we violated a Bell inequality even though the full statistics don't.

This has (in my opinion) been comprehensively addressed already. You can check out the references in the section of the wiki article here

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_test#Detection_loophole

but basically if you detect enough of the possible events in the experiment there is no way for nature to "trick" you in this way, "enough" is 83% for the standard CHSH inequality or 66% if you use a slightly modified. Recent experiments (in the last decade or so) are substantially over the threshold for the detection loophole to be a problem. This is one of the earliest papers where this loophole was closed with space-like seperated detectors from 2015. In this paper they used entangled NV centers in diamond as their qubits of choice, and so essentialy had zero events lost.

https://arxiv.org/abs/1508.05949

This is a second one from the same time. This one uses a more standard setup with photons and worked with about 75% detector efficiency for each party (well above the 66% required)

https://arxiv.org/abs/1511.03189

And this is a third with an efficiency of 78% for Alice and 76% for Bob

https://arxiv.org/abs/1511.03190

I therefore have a new challenge - break the CHSH inequality, while rejecting fewer than 17% of the events, or break the (easier) modified Bell inequality used in papers 2 & 3 while rejecting fewer than a third.

Edit: This is another, more recent paper where they use superconducting qubits and again lose no events

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-023-05885-0

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