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Australian government approves AAPowerLink project to export solar to Singapore

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Re: Australian government approves AAPowerLink project to export solar to Singapore

#51

Post by gizajob »

leoedin wrote: post #47
Djdjur7373bb wrote: post #5

Does it actually make economic sense to run a cable large enough for that kind of power from Australia to Singapore? I would have guessed there must be enough domestic customers or in Indonesia that would make more sense.

Yeah - from a purely technical point of view it seems strange that you'd run a power cable 2000 miles to Singapore to service 4 million people, running alongside the coast of Bali, Java and Sumatra - population 210 million. Presumably those in Singapore have a lot more buying power though. And the politics are more favourable for big capital investment projects.

Yeah, they also have zero room left so I guess the option was between more dirty power stations in Malaysia or this. Seems like a wise, forward-looking initiative.

Re: Australian government approves AAPowerLink project to export solar to Singapore

#52

Post by adrian_b »

left-struck wrote: post #48
Maakuth wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You double the voltage and halve the resistance. With longer cables you can invest more in more expensive stuff at the ends to deal with the high voltage.

Resistance stays the same, loss due to resistance goes down. I’m not sure it halves either, it might be better than halving but I’m not sure myself. Edit: Basic power loss formula is P=I^2R, so yes power loss is divided by 4 for a 2x increase in voltage assuming the target power delivered is held constant.

Usually the resistance does not stay the same, because it is preferred to use a thinner cable, to reduce its cost.

At a given power, double voltage means half current. If the resistance is kept the same, that means 4 times lower losses. If the resistance is doubled by using a thinner cable, that still results in two times lower losses.

Re: Australian government approves AAPowerLink project to export solar to Singapore

#53

Post by wmstack »

hengheng wrote: post #25

From the article, it looks like they are installing 20 GWp of solar cells. ("peak power" that is only achieved when the sun is right above the solar cells with no atmosphere in between). The plan seems to be to store 36-42 GWh, and to deliver 2 GW max. That makes for a 20h energy storage at full power, and a big enough power reserve to recharge that storage during the day while delivering at full power. Likely a rese…

> So, it's a 2 GW power link, not a 20 GW power link

Yup, my bad. Title is wrong but I can't change it now. I was looking for quick figures and saw the solar capacity numbers and put them. It seems only about 1.75 GW are actually planned to go through that link.

Re: Australian government approves AAPowerLink project to export solar to Singapore

#54

Post by Gibbon1 »

chii wrote: post #35
snoxy wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aussie politicians are too busy propping up coal and proposing unrealistic nuclear solutions to seriously focus on renewables.

> proposing unrealistic nuclear solutions to seriously focus on renewables. they're doing unrealistic nuclear proposals, because they know it takes a long time to ramp up, and in the mean time, their buddies' investments in the coal industry gets time to exit and profit properly. It's designed to prevent losses in fossil fuel investments. Not to mention that australian nuclear cannot be profitable imho - not when sol…

Last time I visited this it felt to me that Australia's metro's are small and spread far apart so that a typical sized nuke plant is overkill.

Re: Australian government approves AAPowerLink project to export solar to Singapore

#55

Post by Tade0 »

littlestymaar wrote: post #45
Tade0 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly such a project is currently being explored, while a UK-Morocco line is continuing development: https://www.current-news.co.uk/uk-us-transatlantic-interconn... Weirdly enough the latter is projected to cost less than the now infamous Hinkley Point C nuclear power plant.

Given how well the Australian project is going (it's a long running project that's already late before even starting) I'm convinced that this project will have the same woes which comes from the mere fact of being massive long-term infrastructure projects and have nothing to do with nuclear being special. By the way, do you know what cost the most money on the HPC project? Loan interests, by a very large margin. Beca…

The engineering side of things caused the delays though, which in turn caused cost overruns.

Anyway, in my comment I was referring to the original estimate of £22bln, which is higher than the £18bln for that HVDC project and that's disregarding inflation.

And it's like that with every nuclear power project in Europe and the US, save for the one in Belarus, though it needs to be said there were some complaints about corner-cutting there - seems to be doing fine for now, knocking on wood.

Re: Australian government approves AAPowerLink project to export solar to Singapore

#56

Post by raverbashing »

Tade0 wrote: post #43
gdiamos wrote: post #3

How much copper would you need for a 4,300km 2GW subsea cable?

At this length aluminium would have been used instead most likely. With a typical HVDC line not exceeding 1200mm2 conductor cross section it's about 13k tonnes, so 0,025% of global aluminium production.

> not exceeding 1200m2 conductor cross section

Technically right but I think you mean 1200mm2 (a radius of approx 20mm)

Re: Australian government approves AAPowerLink project to export solar to Singapore

#57

Post by Tade0 »

joha4270 wrote: post #50
Tade0 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly such a project is currently being explored, while a UK-Morocco line is continuing development: https://www.current-news.co.uk/uk-us-transatlantic-interconn... Weirdly enough the latter is projected to cost less than the now infamous Hinkley Point C nuclear power plant.

Real projects has a way of encountering unexpected troubles in a way thay paper ones dont. On top of that there is the energy security problem, even if Morocco is less likey than Russia to try and play tricks. I wish them all luck, but we can't forget the advantages projects has before leaving Excel.

Morocco holds a significant chunk of the world's phosphate reserves, which are a key component of fertilizers - if they weren't a serious partner we would know that by now.

Re: Australian government approves AAPowerLink project to export solar to Singapore

#58

Post by left-struck »

adrian_b wrote: post #52
left-struck wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Resistance stays the same, loss due to resistance goes down. I’m not sure it halves either, it might be better than halving but I’m not sure myself. Edit: Basic power loss formula is P=I^2R, so yes power loss is divided by 4 for a 2x increase in voltage assuming the target power delivered is held constant.

Usually the resistance does not stay the same, because it is preferred to use a thinner cable, to reduce its cost. At a given power, double voltage means half current. If the resistance is kept the same, that means 4 times lower losses. If the resistance is doubled by using a thinner cable, that still results in two times lower losses.

Yeah I agree, I was just pointing out that a wire won’t change resistance due to voltage going up. Of course notwithstanding the wire heating up or something.

Re: Australian government approves AAPowerLink project to export solar to Singapore

#59

Post by dyauspitr »

hengheng wrote: post #25

From the article, it looks like they are installing 20 GWp of solar cells. ("peak power" that is only achieved when the sun is right above the solar cells with no atmosphere in between). The plan seems to be to store 36-42 GWh, and to deliver 2 GW max. That makes for a 20h energy storage at full power, and a big enough power reserve to recharge that storage during the day while delivering at full power. Likely a rese…

Yeah when you look at the amount of road, rail and underwater cabling humans have done over the past 50 years, five of those seem easy.

Re: Australian government approves AAPowerLink project to export solar to Singapore

#60

Post by preisschild »

snoxy wrote: post #20
Djdjur7373bb wrote: post #5

Does it actually make economic sense to run a cable large enough for that kind of power from Australia to Singapore? I would have guessed there must be enough domestic customers or in Indonesia that would make more sense.

Aussie politicians are too busy propping up coal and proposing unrealistic nuclear solutions to seriously focus on renewables.

Nuclear power plants, which have been successfully used for decades, are “unrealistic” now?
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