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NSA tracks Google ads to find Tor users

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Re: NSA tracks Google ads to find Tor users

#51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The root cause? You've missed the giant elephant that's standing right there in the room. It's strange how the elephant managed to make itself invisible. I agree the elephant shit is really bad and really stinks, we should do something about the shit, but we should also do something about the elephant.

What's the elephant? I feel like we agree, but we're talking past each other.

Either a “veiled” political jab, or someone implying that money is the elephant, and as soon as we cure that pesky human nature thing all the problems are solved.

Re: NSA tracks Google ads to find Tor users

#52
> "The NSA then cookies that ad, so that every time you go to a site, the cookie identifies you. Even though your IP address changed [because of Tor], the cookies gave you away," he said.

In other words, just using tails will solve this issue because every session gives you a clean environment.

Re: NSA tracks Google ads to find Tor users

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This may be dumb: Wouldnt an "AI-Container-as-A-Browser" be nifty: Create a container that runs with an AI agent that does your browsing "for you" whereby it does the connection, cookie management, anonymously tor' wrapping as required/set/needed such that you have an abstraction between you and all your browsing, and the browser can dev/null the ads and never let them render and poison the reply with synthetic data…

That really is like how Stallman is described to use the internet, just with AI. Regarding deletion, did you know about this service? https://joindeleteme.com/

Yeah but no. I want to know how to instruct gptbots to spit out actionable code snippets that I can run to have delete stuff. I dont want to pay an Opterly, or join-delete-me a monthly subscription to delete my footprint.

I know their services are valuable, im not against them - I am saying that in the age of GPT-code-slave-bots I'd rather learn the process of figuring out how to tell the AI what I want and I also iteratively learn through the process.

Its wonderful being able to explore ideas so fluidly with the GPTs even though we know/discover their limitations, mal-intent, and other filters/guardrails/alignments and allegiances

Re: NSA tracks Google ads to find Tor users

#54

I'm not understanding this. If I use the "Tor Browser Bundle" and never use that browser for anything but Tor, and never log in to anything on that browser, how can they track me?

Tor is not resilient against timing correlation attacks. Suppose Alfred hosts a Tor onion describing relativistic physics. Suppose Bob cautiously uses Tor to consult such information on a regular basis. Then depending on priviliged access or leverage on the internet backbone multiple approaches can be used: A) suppose some regions randomly suffer internet or power black-outs. Obviously a Tor onion interacting with th…

Something I have been meaning to write up for a long time but never got around to:

I assume the reader knows the basics of asymmetric cryptography, for sake of brevity and simplicity lets us consider RSA, even though thats not the onion encryption in Tor uses. I assume the reader is familiar with the mathematics behind RSA, and the basic proofs that decrypting the encrypted number results in the original number, so familiarity with modular arithmetic, modular exponentiation etc is assumed...

I assume the reader knows the basic concept of onion routing: the sender of a packet chooses an arbitrary path through routing nodes, whose public keys are known, and first encrypts the packet for the exit node's public key, then encrypts that for the next-to-last nodes public key, and so on in a backwards fashion to finally encrypt the onion packet for the first routing node's public key. At each layer a bit of metadata is encrypted along so the routing nodes know only the next node to send their decryption to. So the N-layer encrypted packet is sent to the first routing node, which decrypts the first layer, splits the metadata from the N-1-times encrypted packet, and sends the latter to the next node mentioned in the metadata.

From the perspective of an ISP or 3 letter agency monitoring the traffic of a specific intermediate routing node, they see encrypted packets arrive, and encrypted packets leaving.

Let me first state the obvious, but which I will NOT rely on:

If the eavesdropper were to possess the capability to break RSA, they could trivially decrypt the packet and associate the incoming packets to the outgoing packets. (let us ignore that if they could break RSA, they could just decrypt the whole layered onion of the packet at once...).

To transliterate to math:

EavesDropperAbleToBreakRSA => EavesDropperAbleToTrackPackets

given "A => B" and "not A" one is unable to prove "not B", although it is tempting to jump to that conclusion. B can be true while A is false, it would just mean that the eavesdropper could track packets in an alternative manner, but how?

Lets go back to our hypothetical naive RSA implementation of Tor:

Is it really necessary to break RSA to match incoming and outgoing packets of an intermediate node?

Of course not: imagine first for simplicity that the node only received 2 incoming packets, and 2 outgoing packets.

This means the eavesdropper sees 2 incoming k+1 times encrypted packets, and 2 k-times encrypted packets, which happen to be the decryption of the incomming packets. Why break RSA if the outgoing packets ARE the decryptions? One merely needs to re-encrypt the outgoing packets with the proper metadata, given the routing node's public key, and one should end up with identically one of the 2 incoming packets, so consolidating ISP powers, or other attackers able to monitor network traffic on a sufficient number of nodes can simply track packets in the onion network. Effectively the k+1-times encrypted packet is an RSA signature of the k-times encrypted packet!!!

Suppose a random route is 5 hops long and that there are 30 routing nodes (not realistic but insightful as we will see).

Suppose only the entry node packet and the exit node packet are logged, but not the intermediate traffic. How computationally expensive would it be to guess and verify the route?

that would be 30 times 29 times 28 times 27 times 26 combinations. Each combination would consist of 5 encryptions/signature checks. Very feasible to brute force.

The reason this is insightful is that a dominant eavesdropped missing observability on a small number of links can brute force these without having to break RSA, and still verifiably confirm the actual route. It would only need to consider public keys of nodes on which observability it lacks. So this becomes expensive much quicker for entities that have less eavesdropping infrastructure, than for dominant eavesdroppers.

A security researcher who understands this potential ploy in onion routing networks will have a hard time proving the exploit in practice, because the researcher lacks the eavesdropping powers that ISP's and 3 letter agencies possess.

Re: NSA tracks Google ads to find Tor users

#55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Install a cookie autodelete extension. That will let you whitelist cookies you want for persistent logins and discard the rest. They can usually be configured to purge on tab closing.

Autodelete is old tech if you ask me. If you open the sites before the autodelete happens, then the tracking still happens. Temporary Containers is an addon that solves this elegantly.

Block third party cookies will end most tracking. Block their JS and you get the benefit of a faster browser.

Re: NSA tracks Google ads to find Tor users

#56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That really is like how Stallman is described to use the internet, just with AI. Regarding deletion, did you know about this service? https://joindeleteme.com/

Yeah but no. I want to know how to instruct gptbots to spit out actionable code snippets that I can run to have delete stuff. I dont want to pay an Opterly, or join-delete-me a monthly subscription to delete my footprint. I know their services are valuable, im not against them - I am saying that in the age of GPT-code-slave-bots I'd rather learn the process of figuring out how to tell the AI what I want and I also it…

> I am saying that in the age of GPT-code-slave-bots I'd rather learn the process of figuring out how to tell the AI what I want and I also iteratively learn through the process.

Why?

It's your choice, but everyone knows AI is like poison for deterministic problem-solving. Learning how to better rely on an unreliable machine only guarantees that you're feeble when you have to do something without it. Like relying on autopilot when you don't know how to fly a plane, or trying to get HAL-9000 to open the airlock when you weren't trained on the manual process.

Using AI to automate takedown requests is just pointless. The only reason automated takedowns work is that their automated messages are canned and written by lawyers with a user as the signatory. If you have AI agents write custom and non-binding requests to people that hold your data, nobody will care. At that point you may as well copy-and-paste the messages yourself and save the hassle of correcting a brainless subordinate.

> Its wonderful being able to explore ideas so fluidly with the GPTs even though we know/discover their limitations, mal-intent, and other filters/guardrails/alignments and allegiances

It's as if the first-world has rediscovered the joy of reading, after a brief affair with smartphones, media paranoia and a couple election cycles dominated by misinformation bubbles. Finally, an unopinionated author with no lived-experience to frame their perspective! It's just what we've all been waiting for (besides the bias).

Re: NSA tracks Google ads to find Tor users

#57

I'm not understanding this. If I use the "Tor Browser Bundle" and never use that browser for anything but Tor, and never log in to anything on that browser, how can they track me?

Tor is not resilient against timing correlation attacks. Suppose Alfred hosts a Tor onion describing relativistic physics. Suppose Bob cautiously uses Tor to consult such information on a regular basis. Then depending on priviliged access or leverage on the internet backbone multiple approaches can be used: A) suppose some regions randomly suffer internet or power black-outs. Obviously a Tor onion interacting with th…

This is understood, but that doesn't make "Google Ads" a way to exploit this.

Re: NSA tracks Google ads to find Tor users

#58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah but no. I want to know how to instruct gptbots to spit out actionable code snippets that I can run to have delete stuff. I dont want to pay an Opterly, or join-delete-me a monthly subscription to delete my footprint. I know their services are valuable, im not against them - I am saying that in the age of GPT-code-slave-bots I'd rather learn the process of figuring out how to tell the AI what I want and I also it…

> I am saying that in the age of GPT-code-slave-bots I'd rather learn the process of figuring out how to tell the AI what I want and I also iteratively learn through the process. Why? It's your choice, but everyone knows AI is like poison for deterministic problem-solving. Learning how to better rely on an unreliable machine only guarantees that you're feeble when you have to do something without it. Like relying on…

You misunderstand what I am saying. I LOVE reading and learning.

What I said what I like to tell the bots to give me a python snippet to do a chore, and explain to me how they are doing it and teach me along the way, and document the functions so i can learn, and read them and know what they do,

For example, and HNer posted their VanillaJSX Show HN: today - and it had some interesting UI demos -- so I am right now building a Flask app that uses VanillaJSX elements for a player.js tied to yt-dlp to have a locally hosted Youtube front page player that will download the youtube video locally, display my downloads on a page with a player and the VanillaJSX player elements, just so I can see if I can.

Re: NSA tracks Google ads to find Tor users

#59
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would removing ads help with any of that stuff? Desire for power and influence are not byproducts of ads.

Ads literally dictate what you see online. They don't create the desire for power and influence, but they do create the structure for achieving power and influence.

You think ads are the only way for power and influence to be achieved?

Re: NSA tracks Google ads to find Tor users

#60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am saying that in the age of GPT-code-slave-bots I'd rather learn the process of figuring out how to tell the AI what I want and I also iteratively learn through the process. Why? It's your choice, but everyone knows AI is like poison for deterministic problem-solving. Learning how to better rely on an unreliable machine only guarantees that you're feeble when you have to do something without it. Like relying on…

You misunderstand what I am saying. I LOVE reading and learning. What I said what I like to tell the bots to give me a python snippet to do a chore, and explain to me how they are doing it and teach me along the way, and document the functions so i can learn, and read them and know what they do, For example, and HNer posted their VanillaJSX Show HN: today - and it had some interesting UI demos -- so I am right now bu…

But why would you use AI for that when it's inferior to the Flask docs and the VanillaJSX example code? I've written projects with ChatGPT in the driver's seat before, you end up spending more time debugging the AI than your software. For topics like history or math I would expressly argue that relying on AI as a study partner only makes you dumber. The way it represents code really isn't too far off either.

Again, it's your choice how to spend your time. I just cannot fathom the idea of learning from an LLM, a tool designed to expand on wrong answers and ignore the discrimination between fantasy and reality. It feels to me like this stems from a distrust in human-written literature, or at least a struggle to access it. Maybe this is what it feels like getting old.

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