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Mini imported Japanese vehicles may soon be banned on Massachusetts roads

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Re: Mini imported Japanese vehicles may soon be banned on Massachusetts roads

#51

Post by amanaplanacanal »

Amezarak wrote: post #22
EligibleDecoy wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because of a quirk of emissions controls in the US. Longer wheelbases and heavier vehicles can get by with poorer emissions. It was done, at the time, to help semi trailers and other huge trucks meet less restrictive requirements without specifically calling them out but now has led to each manufacturer making vehicles as large as possible so meeting emissions restrictions is more economical.

This gets brought up on HN every time the subject comes up but it doesn't make sense. It is true that, sensibly, emissions regulations are more relaxed as vehicles get larger. But smaller vehicles are still cheaper to make and sell for lower MSRPs than the same manufacturer's larger cars, and larger cars almost always hugely outsell them. Sadly, this has meant that a lot of small cars, like the Honda Fit, have been d…

There is the perception that larger vehicles are safer, at least for the people inside. They aren’t, but that is the perception. And fuck the people outside I guess.

Re: Mini imported Japanese vehicles may soon be banned on Massachusetts roads

#52

Post by digdugdirk »

cuddlyogre wrote: post #44
short_sells_poo wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not in a city they aren't. They are an excellent commuting tool that offers much of the flexibility of a car for a fraction of the cost and much better commute time.

And several times the noise and pollution.

This is absolutely false. Any motorcycle you can buy in the US is required to meet both noise and pollution standards.

Re: Mini imported Japanese vehicles may soon be banned on Massachusetts roads

#53

Post by zrobotics »

cuddlyogre wrote: post #44
short_sells_poo wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not in a city they aren't. They are an excellent commuting tool that offers much of the flexibility of a car for a fraction of the cost and much better commute time.

And several times the noise and pollution.

OK, I'll need to see a source on increased pollution. I really doubt that a motorcycle is putting out more pollution than an average American-size vehicle. For example, my sport bike gets 59MPG, and I've owned multiple bikes that got >100mpg. Even without a catalytic converter, how is that more pollution than a single commuter driving in a truck or SUV getting 20MPG and likely shedding more road and tire particulate due to the increased weight.

Edit: although the noise thing is valid, I'm perpetually annoyed with the "loud pipes save lives" crowd, that's obnoxious.

Re: Mini imported Japanese vehicles may soon be banned on Massachusetts roads

#54

Post by khafra »

Tuna-Fish wrote: post #31
khafra wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Compacts, subcompacts, and microcompacts are very popular in Europe. Is this because Europe has fewer and less restrictive standards for fuel economy, emissions, and safety? I am not an automotive policy expert, but I feel like Europe tends to regulate more than the US does.

Regulations are not just a more/less choice. They can also be better or worse. This usually comes up when arguing about about FDA, which is uniquely bad at its job. When I try to point that out, people come out of the woodwork and argue as if I'm a nutcase libertarian who wants to abolish all regulations. No, there are countries with drug regulations that are generally tighter, and also the population has had access…

FDA Delenda Est, sure. But I'm still glad that seatbelts and frame strength standards aren't optional for auto manufacturers. Maybe we just need to regulate regulatory capture; have penalties for it that actually hurt the pocketbooks of the market juggernauts who try it.

Re: Mini imported Japanese vehicles may soon be banned on Massachusetts roads

#56

Post by sickofparadox »

Amezarak wrote: post #22
EligibleDecoy wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because of a quirk of emissions controls in the US. Longer wheelbases and heavier vehicles can get by with poorer emissions. It was done, at the time, to help semi trailers and other huge trucks meet less restrictive requirements without specifically calling them out but now has led to each manufacturer making vehicles as large as possible so meeting emissions restrictions is more economical.

This gets brought up on HN every time the subject comes up but it doesn't make sense. It is true that, sensibly, emissions regulations are more relaxed as vehicles get larger. But smaller vehicles are still cheaper to make and sell for lower MSRPs than the same manufacturer's larger cars, and larger cars almost always hugely outsell them. Sadly, this has meant that a lot of small cars, like the Honda Fit, have been d…

Because the fuel standards for those smaller vehicles are not realistic to hit. If you go to page 24 on this pdf [1] you'll see that for a car with ~41 square foot wheelbase they need to get 55 combined miles per gallon. This essentially disqualifies anything that is not a hybrid from even going into production at that size. I'll give you its true that Americans love big cars, but even my Ram TRX driving coworkers are complaining that trucks are too big and that they'd love for a early 00's or late 90's F-150 style truck again.

[1] https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/FR-2022-05-02/pdf/2022-0...

Re: Mini imported Japanese vehicles may soon be banned on Massachusetts roads

#57

Post by briHass »

zrobotics wrote: post #53
cuddlyogre wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And several times the noise and pollution.

OK, I'll need to see a source on increased pollution. I really doubt that a motorcycle is putting out more pollution than an average American-size vehicle. For example, my sport bike gets 59MPG, and I've owned multiple bikes that got >100mpg. Even without a catalytic converter, how is that more pollution than a single commuter driving in a truck or SUV getting 20MPG and likely shedding more road and tire particulate…

For exhaust emissions, motorcycles are often dramatically worse than modern vehicles with catalytic converters.

https://gearjunkie.com/motors/motorcycle-vs-vehicle-emission...

Re: Mini imported Japanese vehicles may soon be banned on Massachusetts roads

#58

Post by tacticalturtle »

petesergeant wrote: post #12
EligibleDecoy wrote: post #8

The hypocrisy is that if safety was the overall concern, then motorcycles would have been banned a long time ago (and I say this as someone who enjoys riding my motorcycle). I think the actual problem is that when compared to other cars in their category these kei trucks do have abysmal safety standards such as no airbags or crumple zones. Which is because there isn’t a mini truck category in the US. Basically all pi…

I assume governance is the art of the possible, and banning motorbikes is impossible for political reasons, where banning hobby vehicles looks pretty straight-forward.

Governance is also the art of getting the most for your financial and political capital. The fact that the Mass RMV is taking the time and effort to write up and defend a bespoke policy for a super niche vehicle class is a bit of a head scratcher.

Only 7500 kei vehicles are imported into the entire US each year - is this really a problem that needs addressing?

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/07/14/business/kei-trucks-japan...

Re: Mini imported Japanese vehicles may soon be banned on Massachusetts roads

#59

Post by Amezarak »

sickofparadox wrote: post #56
Amezarak wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This gets brought up on HN every time the subject comes up but it doesn't make sense. It is true that, sensibly, emissions regulations are more relaxed as vehicles get larger. But smaller vehicles are still cheaper to make and sell for lower MSRPs than the same manufacturer's larger cars, and larger cars almost always hugely outsell them. Sadly, this has meant that a lot of small cars, like the Honda Fit, have been d…

Because the fuel standards for those smaller vehicles are not realistic to hit. If you go to page 24 on this pdf [1] you'll see that for a car with ~41 square foot wheelbase they need to get 55 combined miles per gallon. This essentially disqualifies anything that is not a hybrid from even going into production at that size. I'll give you its true that Americans love big cars, but even my Ram TRX driving coworkers ar…

Thanks for the link, I've been looking for that. Without reviewing it in depth - I appreciate any pointers - it looks like going by the tables on page 26, the requirement for "light trucks" (therefore including SUVs) is also higher than what can be achieved without a hybrid system. I see similar tables near the end seemingly showing the same thing that I think your 55mpg number came from.

Re: Mini imported Japanese vehicles may soon be banned on Massachusetts roads

#60

Post by infecto »

olalonde wrote: post #38
infecto wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds like a massive conspiracy if I have ever heard one. Evidence would be helpful. Foreign markets are often very different and those vehicles don't pass safety in the US. My favorite was the death traps that Toyota Mexico made up until a couple years ago. Brand new vehicle but absolute death trap.

It doesn't require a conspiracy to be the case, simply a bit of "safety" lobbying by domestic manufacturers. Lobbying for regulations that favor and protect market incumbents happens all the time. I'd go as far to say that it's the primary source of regulations.

The chicken tariff posted above makes total sense. Your reaching into safety without evidence sounds like a conspiracy.
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