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Larry Tesler pioneered cut-and-paste, the one-button mouse, WYSIWYG (2005)

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Re: Larry Tesler pioneered cut-and-paste, the one-button mouse, WYSIWYG (2005)

#51

Post by layer8 »

bluGill wrote: post #38
II2II wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know what the ideal number of mouse buttons, but agree that it is more than one. The odd thing is it's appearance in the Macintosh: a computer where the user was supposed to orient most of their actions around the mouse. That said, I'm pretty sure the double click came about because certain operations were costly. There is no particular reason why would couldn't use a single click to launch and application or…

Apple wanted to advertise you couldn't press the wrong button, which meant they couldn't have more than one button.

You could still press it at the wrong time. ;)

Re: Larry Tesler pioneered cut-and-paste, the one-button mouse, WYSIWYG (2005)

#52

Post by themacguffinman »

His Amazon stint was mentioned in Steve Yegge's famous "Platforms" rant [1] where the reason for his departure was described less amicably:

> Jeff Bezos is an infamous micro-manager. He micro-manages every single pixel of Amazon's retail site. He hired Larry Tesler, Apple's Chief Scientist and probably the very most famous and respected human-computer interaction expert in the entire world, and then ignored every goddamn thing Larry said for three years until Larry finally -- wisely -- left the company. Larry would do these big usability studies and demonstrate beyond any shred of doubt that nobody can understand that frigging website, but Bezos just couldn't let go of those pixels, all those millions of semantics-packed pixels on the landing page. They were like millions of his own precious children. So they're all still there, and Larry is not.

The true reason for his departure is just a subject for gossip, but even today I agree that the Amazon store UI is confusingly dense and complicated, surprisingly bad UX for a Big Tech consumer-facing company.

[1] https://gist.github.com/chitchcock/1281611

Re: Larry Tesler pioneered cut-and-paste, the one-button mouse, WYSIWYG (2005)

#53

Post by layer8 »

kps wrote: post #34
bluGill wrote: post #29

One button mouse was one of the worst inventions. Mice need at least 3 buttons to be useful. You sometimes need to select something and sometimes you need to launch it. Or you need to select in several different ways. Because of this miss-invention they had to invent the double-click and all the complexity of timing (try making double click for someone old an nearing senile and someone young and fast with the same ti…

Double-clicking is also undiscoverable . People had to be taught about it. Nothing natural or previously familiar works that way.

To be fair, people also had to be taught how to point with a mouse.

The double-click also wasn't essential, you could perform all actions using the one-click menus. The double-click was introduced as a shortcut. From the Apple Lisa Owner's Guide:

8Shortcuts

The File/Print menu contains all of the commands you need for creating, opening, closing, and storing your documents. Because you use these commands so frequently, the Office System includes a simple shortcut for performing these tasks: clicking the mouse button twice.

To tear off a sheet of stationery, click twice rapidly on the stationery pad icon.

To open an icon into a window, click twice rapidly on the icon.

To close an open window, click twice rapidly on the window's title bar icon.

Clicking twice to close a window can either set aside the object or save and put away the object, depending on where the object's shadows are. If there is a shadow on the desktop, clicking twice causes the object to be set aside. If the only shadow is in a folder or on a disk, clicking twice summons a dialog box, which asks you whether you want the object set aside or put away.

8<––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––

Re: Larry Tesler pioneered cut-and-paste, the one-button mouse, WYSIWYG (2005)

#54

Post by detourdog »

kps wrote: post #36
mark-r wrote: post #6

It amazes me that something as simple and obvious as cut and paste had to be invented. Even more amazing that we can actually point to the person that did it.

The alternative, as used e.g. by the Xerox Star, was select-and-copy/move. The advantage over cut-and-paste is that you don't have invisible fragile state. However, the Star implementation had copy and move modes (select source, COPY, mouse to destination, CLICK) and Tesler hated modes. I don't know why Star didn't use the modeless version (select source, mouse to destination, COPY).

The mother of all demos had a chorded keyboard, a mouse,a regular keyboard, and video conferencing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mother_of_All_Demos

Re: Larry Tesler pioneered cut-and-paste, the one-button mouse, WYSIWYG (2005)

#55

Post by cubefox »

tom_ wrote: post #45
cubefox wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Often the obvious stuff was invented decades ago, but some old people in power persistently refuse to implement into major products. Like the ability to copy multiple things without overwriting the previous entry. Who would ever need that?!

Not before time, this is in windows 11.

I assume the last product manager who vetoed this change for decades finally retired.

Re: Larry Tesler pioneered cut-and-paste, the one-button mouse, WYSIWYG (2005)

#56

Post by shortformblog »

I wrote a remembrance when he died a few years back. The timing of this story (2005) is a little unfortunate, because the genius of the Newton investment only showed itself later, even with its failure: https://www.vice.com/en/article/n7jdgw/larry-tesler-the-inve...

See, Apple invested in ARM because of the Newton, which means they held Newton stock. And on top of the fact that this gave Apple an inside line/competitive advantage with ARM that we’re still seeing today, it also meant that Apple owned ARM stock—and could sell it. When the company was near its nadir in the late 1990s, it nursed itself back to health by selling shares of ARM.

So even Tesler’s biggest failure was a stroke of genius.

Re: Larry Tesler pioneered cut-and-paste, the one-button mouse, WYSIWYG (2005)

#57

Post by me_me_me »

bloopernova wrote: post #27
mark-r wrote: post #6

It amazes me that something as simple and obvious as cut and paste had to be invented. Even more amazing that we can actually point to the person that did it.

Back before 2009, early iPhones didn't have cut/copy and paste. Folks had to figure out a good scheme that worked with touch screens.

[flagged]

Re: Larry Tesler pioneered cut-and-paste, the one-button mouse, WYSIWYG (2005)

#58

Post by sandworm101 »

namdnay wrote: post #49
sandworm101 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> something as simple and obvious as cut and paste had to be invented. Which is was. A few hundred years ago. Cut-and-paste began as a manual process. Arranging material for printed often involved very literal cutting and pasting of text and images. Entire trades (typesetters) were dedicated to the task. A more accurate description of Tesler's contribution was that he was the first to implement the concept in the di…

yes i think it was pretty obvious to anyone reading this article that Larry Tesler did not invent the physical action of cutting and pasting paper

I'm not so sure. The art of typesetting something like a newspaper page doesn't exist for most people. They see oldschool wooden printing press ... big gap ... then bubblejet printers. I know people who think newspapers were somehow silkscreened. The idea that someone in the mid-20th would glue bits of text to a page, which was then transformed into a metal printing plate, is a process most do not appreciate.

Re: Larry Tesler pioneered cut-and-paste, the one-button mouse, WYSIWYG (2005)

#59

Post by bluGill »

layer8 wrote: post #53
kps wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Double-clicking is also undiscoverable . People had to be taught about it. Nothing natural or previously familiar works that way.

To be fair, people also had to be taught how to point with a mouse. The double-click also wasn't essential, you could perform all actions using the one-click menus. The double-click was introduced as a shortcut. From the Apple Lisa Owner's Guide: 8 Shortcuts The File/Print menu contains all of the commands you need for creating, opening, closing, and storing your documents. Because you use these commands so frequentl…

Pointing with the mouse is discoverable though. If you start moving it - which odds are you will do sometime (even by accident) you will see the pointer moving and eventually figure it out.

You are very unlikely to discover the double click by accident.

Re: Larry Tesler pioneered cut-and-paste, the one-button mouse, WYSIWYG (2005)

#60

Post by bluGill »

chongli wrote: post #50
II2II wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know what the ideal number of mouse buttons, but agree that it is more than one. The odd thing is it's appearance in the Macintosh: a computer where the user was supposed to orient most of their actions around the mouse. That said, I'm pretty sure the double click came about because certain operations were costly. There is no particular reason why would couldn't use a single click to launch and application or…

I used a (OS 7/8/9) Mac for years with a one button mouse. I was very productive with it! I remember seeing Windows 95 with its right-click context menus but I wasn’t very interested at the time. I was happy using keyboard shortcuts and the like. I believe Steve Jobs was pretty adamant about keeping the one button mouse on the Mac for years and it was absolutely the right call. The Mac was way easier to use back then…

I am not doubting you were productive with it. However that does not make it better, it just makes it what you know. User experience experts have studied this for a long time, and they all conclude that you need more than one button. (there isn't agreement on the best number as there are some trade offs, but one is clearly not enough)

The world has a real problem with people arguing what they know is best without any basis in reality. Even if there is a clear reason one choice is better, most arguments for the better choice end up being because they know it better not the clear reasons it is better (see most metric/imperial arguments)

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