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What I Saw in the Darién Gap

theatlantic.com

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Re: What I Saw in the Darién Gap

#51

Post by netsharc »

gambiting wrote: post #50
netsharc wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, the whole "they're 'savages'" argument feels like a justification of why "we" (westerners living in relative luxury) are allowed to deny them the basic neccessities for life (food, housing, freedom from falling bombs). To throw more fuel to the flamewar, just look at the Israeli treatment of Gazans... For a longer essay of the idea of "refugees welcome", from an Iranian refugee who with her parents got asylum i…

That was an incredible read. Even though I don't think I entirely agree with the author(I am an immigrant myself and do feel grateful for my new home), it was still a worthwhile read.

There's a bit where she said she could sense the Americans wanting to hear her mother repeat her story of their journey from "oppresive Iran" to "free America", but seemingly wanting to hear it (again and again) to feel good about "their" generosity. And she is grateful, but she doesn't like this expectation of the "rescuing" community that refugees are only allowed to feel joy and gratefulness.

Re: What I Saw in the Darién Gap

#52

Post by mcphage »

altacc wrote: post #11
worstspotgain wrote: post #7

Just in time for election season, these "human interest" pieces casually begin to appear, surreptitiously stoking anti-immigrant sentiments. The Darien Gap is still "wild" because not a lot of migrants crossed it historically. Most US migrants came from Mexico. However, migration from Mexico has greatly decreased in recent decades. The net flow is around zero. [1] That's because Mexico is no longer an undeveloped cou…

The answer to immigration is indeed to improve the countries that are the sources of migration but I think this should be by making the world fairer, more equal and less profit led. History shows that direct or indirect intervention by the US fails terribly as much, if not more, than it succeeds and those failures lead to immigration. The United States' post-9/11 wars have resulted in mass population displacements an…

> The West keeps thinking that it can destabilize a country, choose which side they want to win and somehow that country will emerge as a stable & successful ally without any side effects. That's delusional thinking but our governments keep doing it.

Yes, but also Germany, Japan, South Korea—places where we did try that and it worked. So it's not delusional thinking, but also what we did in those places, and what we did in more recent places, isn't exactly the same. There was a lot more follow through after WW2 and the Korean War.

Re: What I Saw in the Darién Gap

#53

Post by jamincan »

reducesuffering wrote: post #13
worstspotgain wrote: post #7

Just in time for election season, these "human interest" pieces casually begin to appear, surreptitiously stoking anti-immigrant sentiments. The Darien Gap is still "wild" because not a lot of migrants crossed it historically. Most US migrants came from Mexico. However, migration from Mexico has greatly decreased in recent decades. The net flow is around zero. [1] That's because Mexico is no longer an undeveloped cou…

> these "human interest" pieces casually begin to appear, surreptitiously stoking anti-immigrant sentiments You don't usually see complaints about the right-wing bias of The Atlantic ...

At least one podcast I listen to (If Books Could Kill) seems to place The Atlantic in the "reactionary center" or at least sympathetic to it. I don't fully grok the term, but it mainly seems to include people who sit near the center political, generally view themselves as progressives, but feel that things have gone too far and therefore push against the supposed excesses of the left.

Re: What I Saw in the Darién Gap

#54

Post by slaw »

ivann wrote: post #40
gwervc wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> Yes, technically they are people, from the same species. Then about anything else is different. They are people, without technicalities. And we have a lot in common. There are a lot of differences inside a country too. In my country far-right doesn't value women right, personal freedom and non-violence while most migrants I've met do.

Do far-left value freedom rights in your country?

Re: What I Saw in the Darién Gap

#55

Post by HDThoreaun »

jmyeet wrote: post #45

Following the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait the US imposed devastating sanctions on Saddam Hussein's regime that continued for over a decade until 9/11 was used as an excuse to topple a regime that really had nothing to do with 9/11 at all. Let's also remember that Saddam Hussein was a US creation, a foil against Iran. The US supplied weapons to Iraq to figh ta war with Iran that cost over a million lives. And why was Ira…

> the sanctions on Venezuela have crushed the economy

Maduro crushed their economy. The us can’t sanction oil producers into the ground as we’ve seen with Russia. It was their incredibly shitty economic policy that destroyed living standards in Venezuela. Absolutely no other reason oil production should be lower than it was a decade ago

Re: What I Saw in the Darién Gap

#56

Post by jmyeet »

HDThoreaun wrote: post #55
jmyeet wrote: post #45

Following the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait the US imposed devastating sanctions on Saddam Hussein's regime that continued for over a decade until 9/11 was used as an excuse to topple a regime that really had nothing to do with 9/11 at all. Let's also remember that Saddam Hussein was a US creation, a foil against Iran. The US supplied weapons to Iraq to figh ta war with Iran that cost over a million lives. And why was Ira…

> the sanctions on Venezuela have crushed the economy Maduro crushed their economy. The us can’t sanction oil producers into the ground as we’ve seen with Russia. It was their incredibly shitty economic policy that destroyed living standards in Venezuela. Absolutely no other reason oil production should be lower than it was a decade ago

> Absolutely no other reason oil production should be lower than it was a decade ago

Other than, you know, the sanctions that prevent them from selling their oil to most ofd the world?

Re: What I Saw in the Darién Gap

#57

Post by advisedwang »

sgt wrote: post #6

This is crazy and obviously has to be stopped somehow. Can't the US Army be sent down there to patrol the upper border of the jungle, so force the migrants to return?

This is worse jungle than Vietnam, just as a reference point for how well the US Army might be able to control the territory.

Re: What I Saw in the Darién Gap

#58

Post by S_Bear »

Sometimes I like to imagine what the US would look like if we took a fraction of the trillions of dollars we wasted in Iraq and Afghanistan and used them to help our southern neighbors develop and modernize. Happy and content people don't risk their lives to cross the jungle.

Re: What I Saw in the Darién Gap

#59

Post by thefaux »

slaw wrote: post #54
ivann wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, technically they are people, from the same species. Then about anything else is different. They are people, without technicalities. And we have a lot in common. There are a lot of differences inside a country too. In my country far-right doesn't value women right, personal freedom and non-violence while most migrants I've met do.

Do far-left value freedom rights in your country?

Always worth reminding that the political axes tend to be horseshoe shaped rather than linear. Extremists on both sides are more similar to each other in many ways than they are to more average people. But of course each side projects their own vices onto the other and usually are incapable of seeing it in themselves.

Re: What I Saw in the Darién Gap

#60

Post by HDThoreaun »

jmyeet wrote: post #56
HDThoreaun wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the sanctions on Venezuela have crushed the economy Maduro crushed their economy. The us can’t sanction oil producers into the ground as we’ve seen with Russia. It was their incredibly shitty economic policy that destroyed living standards in Venezuela. Absolutely no other reason oil production should be lower than it was a decade ago

> Absolutely no other reason oil production should be lower than it was a decade ago Other than, you know, the sanctions that prevent them from selling their oil to most ofd the world?

Didnt stop Russia. More than enough countries willing to go against the US for oil. China alone would buy as much as Venezuela can produce.
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