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How a Mexican Drug Cartel Makes Its Billions

nytimes.com

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Re: How a Mexican Drug Cartel Makes Its Billions

#51

Post by InclinedPlane »

kia wrote: post #47
guelo wrote: post #31

The only way to stop these large criminal enterprises is to legalize the stuff. Just like alcohol prohibition created some of the most notorious American criminals, South American drug prohibitions produce powerful criminals down there. There isn't any large crime related to South American cocoa or coffee imports. Legalize it and then spend money and make laws regulating consumption, it would greatly reduce the miser…

The big difference of drugs from alcohol and tobacco is their addictiveness. While you can't get addicted to alcohol or tobacco after one use, certain drugs cause severe addiction after first dose. Of course you can legalize only mild drugs. But it won't solve the problem because as we see this business is mostly about very addictive ones. EDIT: typo

The key problem with your argument is the idea that we can reduce drug use by making it illegal. That fact isn't born out by reality.

Re: How a Mexican Drug Cartel Makes Its Billions

#52

Post by Mizza »

kia wrote: post #47
guelo wrote: post #31

The only way to stop these large criminal enterprises is to legalize the stuff. Just like alcohol prohibition created some of the most notorious American criminals, South American drug prohibitions produce powerful criminals down there. There isn't any large crime related to South American cocoa or coffee imports. Legalize it and then spend money and make laws regulating consumption, it would greatly reduce the miser…

The big difference of drugs from alcohol and tobacco is their addictiveness. While you can't get addicted to alcohol or tobacco after one use, certain drugs cause severe addiction after first dose. Of course you can legalize only mild drugs. But it won't solve the problem because as we see this business is mostly about very addictive ones. EDIT: typo

[citation needed]

Re: How a Mexican Drug Cartel Makes Its Billions

#53

Post by dllthomas »

elorant wrote: post #41
paulhauggis wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At this point, I doubt it will help. Why? The cartels thrive in countries where you can essentially buy off any official. When you legalize drugs, they aren't going to suddenly stop selling it. They will now have a legal business which will continue to fund their criminal empires. We most likely will see an increase in other crimes, like extortion and kidnapping. Drugs are still illegal in the US and we don't really…

Legalizing drugs means that the street price will drop by 90% and that will eventually make drug trafficking obsolete. This of course doesn't solve the real problem which is consumption.

> This of course doesn't solve the real problem which is consumption.

I object to your use of the definite article here. We can argue about the degree to which consumption is a problem vs. it leading to problems, moderate use, what particular drugs, etc... but making the police into the enemy of a large swath of our population is itself a real problem, gang violence to control distribution territory is itself a real problem, etc.

If people are doing things that hurt themselves that's bad, but it's important we don't cause worse problems (for those people or the rest of us) in trying to stop it, and legalization frees up huge resources that we could put toward educating people about the dangers of various drugs and cleaning up the mess when they don't listen.

Re: How a Mexican Drug Cartel Makes Its Billions

#54

Post by AJ007 »

dsrguru wrote: post #38
guelo wrote: post #31

The only way to stop these large criminal enterprises is to legalize the stuff. Just like alcohol prohibition created some of the most notorious American criminals, South American drug prohibitions produce powerful criminals down there. There isn't any large crime related to South American cocoa or coffee imports. Legalize it and then spend money and make laws regulating consumption, it would greatly reduce the miser…

While that would reduce violent crime, it would also sanction people using recreational drugs besides alcohol, tobacco, and caffeine. Many voters and politicians find it against their religious or moral beliefs to allow other people to do recreational drugs besides the ones they themselves are doing.

Arguably it would take time for the violent crime to subside. A culture of violence does not vanish over night, but rather over generations.

My prediction is Mexico's violent crime spilling over to the US resulting in a drug war surge (both already happening to some degree.) In the background, regulators slowly loosen up laws as to not lose face (would explain the toleration of medical marijuana.)

I can only imagine that from the outside American appear completely crazy. Regulators and lobbyists write the laws, bankers and the wealthy fund the enforcement, and then both parties consume them in obscene quantities. The exporting country pays the price in blood and corruption. From my perspective as an American, that's not crazy, that's evil.

Re: How a Mexican Drug Cartel Makes Its Billions

#55

Post by jlmendezbonini »

paulhauggis wrote: post #36
guelo wrote: post #31

The only way to stop these large criminal enterprises is to legalize the stuff. Just like alcohol prohibition created some of the most notorious American criminals, South American drug prohibitions produce powerful criminals down there. There isn't any large crime related to South American cocoa or coffee imports. Legalize it and then spend money and make laws regulating consumption, it would greatly reduce the miser…

At this point, I doubt it will help. Why? The cartels thrive in countries where you can essentially buy off any official. When you legalize drugs, they aren't going to suddenly stop selling it. They will now have a legal business which will continue to fund their criminal empires. We most likely will see an increase in other crimes, like extortion and kidnapping. Drugs are still illegal in the US and we don't really…

>Drugs are still illegal in the US and we don't really see >the same kind of crime in our country because the police >actually (for the most part) do their job.

I strongly disagree with your statement. Police? Mexico is not using your usual police officers to fight drug violence neither Colombia. They are using highly trained military forces. Why? Cartels have very advance military equipment that is, sometimes, even purchased directly from the U.S. government as stated by one of the captured Zetas cartel heads (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/jul/7/inquiry-of-we...). One of the main reasons the U.S. doesn't have the amount drug related crimes that countries like Mexico do is because it's their primary market (in the case of Mexican cartels) so they, obviously, don't want to create that much problems there and mess up their business.

This is not about pointing fingers or saying that the police is useless but as someone who was unlucky enough to witness hitman executed individuals (in front of my house) but lucky enough to _not see anything_ useful for the police I have to tell you that is not about an effective police force. The production, distribution, violence, money laundering, and all the other problems that revolve around drugs are shared between: consumers, criminals, and corrupt individuals (private, government, and public service sectors). My point is that this very complicated problem has only gotten worse since the "War on Drugs" started so legalizing drugs to have some regulation could be an alternative.

Re: How a Mexican Drug Cartel Makes Its Billions

#56

Post by ojbyrne »

kia wrote: post #47
guelo wrote: post #31

The only way to stop these large criminal enterprises is to legalize the stuff. Just like alcohol prohibition created some of the most notorious American criminals, South American drug prohibitions produce powerful criminals down there. There isn't any large crime related to South American cocoa or coffee imports. Legalize it and then spend money and make laws regulating consumption, it would greatly reduce the miser…

The big difference of drugs from alcohol and tobacco is their addictiveness. While you can't get addicted to alcohol or tobacco after one use, certain drugs cause severe addiction after first dose. Of course you can legalize only mild drugs. But it won't solve the problem because as we see this business is mostly about very addictive ones. EDIT: typo

"Scientists have found, for instance, that nicotine is as addictive as heroin, cocaine or amphetamines..."

http://www.nytimes.com/1987/03/29/magazine/nicotine-harder-t...

Re: How a Mexican Drug Cartel Makes Its Billions

#57

Post by silvestrov »

elorant wrote: post #41
paulhauggis wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At this point, I doubt it will help. Why? The cartels thrive in countries where you can essentially buy off any official. When you legalize drugs, they aren't going to suddenly stop selling it. They will now have a legal business which will continue to fund their criminal empires. We most likely will see an increase in other crimes, like extortion and kidnapping. Drugs are still illegal in the US and we don't really…

Legalizing drugs means that the street price will drop by 90% and that will eventually make drug trafficking obsolete. This of course doesn't solve the real problem which is consumption.

Street price doesn't even need to drop: it is safer for customers to buy it at the local drug store (legal, pure drug) than on the street (unknown quality).

Re: How a Mexican Drug Cartel Makes Its Billions

#58

Post by debacle »

vibrunazo wrote: post #45
guelo wrote: post #31

The only way to stop these large criminal enterprises is to legalize the stuff. Just like alcohol prohibition created some of the most notorious American criminals, South American drug prohibitions produce powerful criminals down there. There isn't any large crime related to South American cocoa or coffee imports. Legalize it and then spend money and make laws regulating consumption, it would greatly reduce the miser…

They make most of their money from cocaine and methamphetamine (which can be legally acquired, but that didn't stop traffic). 90% of all cocaine in the US come from mexico. [1] Do you mean cocaine should be legalized? Alcohol is a bad analogy to legalizing cocaine, you should probably be comparing to the Opium Wars instead, which didn't really end well. [2] [1] http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RL34215.pdf [2] http://en…

Why isn't cocaine legalized? Honest question - I've never done it nor have a I done a ton of research.

Re: How a Mexican Drug Cartel Makes Its Billions

#59

Post by dllthomas »

vibrunazo wrote: post #45
guelo wrote: post #31

The only way to stop these large criminal enterprises is to legalize the stuff. Just like alcohol prohibition created some of the most notorious American criminals, South American drug prohibitions produce powerful criminals down there. There isn't any large crime related to South American cocoa or coffee imports. Legalize it and then spend money and make laws regulating consumption, it would greatly reduce the miser…

They make most of their money from cocaine and methamphetamine (which can be legally acquired, but that didn't stop traffic). 90% of all cocaine in the US come from mexico. [1] Do you mean cocaine should be legalized? Alcohol is a bad analogy to legalizing cocaine, you should probably be comparing to the Opium Wars instead, which didn't really end well. [2] [1] http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RL34215.pdf [2] http://en…

IANAH, but this runs counter to my understanding. The Opium Wars are closer to what we are currently fighting, than to the results of legalization. The British (Mexico) wanted to sell opium to the Chinese (US) when it was against Chinese (US) law. There is a significant difference in that Mexico technically forbids this activity too, of course, while the British did not, but legalization by the US would move it further away from the historical situation, not closer to it.

Re: How a Mexican Drug Cartel Makes Its Billions

#60

Post by InclinedPlane »

jlarocco wrote: post #46
guelo wrote: post #31

The only way to stop these large criminal enterprises is to legalize the stuff. Just like alcohol prohibition created some of the most notorious American criminals, South American drug prohibitions produce powerful criminals down there. There isn't any large crime related to South American cocoa or coffee imports. Legalize it and then spend money and make laws regulating consumption, it would greatly reduce the miser…

I'm in favor of drug legalization, but it's not going to happen any time soon, and I don't think it would reduce crime even if it did It's hard enough to get pot legalized in most states - the "harder" drugs don't stand a chance. And even if they were legalized, it's not even possible for a big illegal drug operation to "go legit". All of the drug cartels will still have long histories of violence, piles of cash, boa…

People stop giving huge wads of money to violent criminals. Drug users stop being legal pariahs and are able to be a part of the criminal justice system other than as just a defendant. The courts stop being crammed full of drug users. Police departments stop being preoccupied by "dope on the table" drug busts and concentrate on things like homicide and violent crimes.

No, gangs aren't going to go away, but they will be reduced in capability and law enforcement will be far more effective. Crime will go down. Not instantly, but over a fairly short amount of time.

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