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It all began with a strange email

blogs.valvesoftware.com

51–60 of 128 posts

Re: It all began with a strange email

#51
post #50

>the notion that a computer game company has surreptitiously and quite spontaneously created virtual economies that it comprehends as ‘economies’ (which deserve study and regulation) was enough to write back instantly Does this man believe we should have legal regulation of game economies? Oh wow.

I think he's referring to the regulatory control Valve exerts over the virtual world.

Re: It all began with a strange email

#52

Among virtual economies, EVE Online's economy is the real deal. The EVE game economy is I dare say more developed and complex than nearly any other games' - it has many kinds of input factors and stages of production, and many of the production facilities/resources are player-controlled and their fate determines on political maneuvering, war and sabotage between player corporations (guilds). The price of most items i…

Has anyone here played EVE online? I keep hearing about how intricate and rich it is, but I've never met anyone who played it. Is the complexity interesting? Or is it 'time-sink' complexity in the vein of Diablo 3 -- as in rather mindless optima-seeking?

I don't personally but I have close friends who are or have been very heavy players. To me it definitely seems to have an interesting level of complexity, Eve seems to generate more unique and epic stories of gameplay than other MMOs, for example. You can basically decide what sorts of gameplay you want to engage in. If you want to work cooperatively with a bunch of friends and build cool stuff you can do that. If you want to be a soldier in a war you can do that. If you want to be a spy or a pirate or a fraudster you can do all of that too. And if you get tired of one you can switch.

Re: It all began with a strange email

#53
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Has anyone here played EVE online? I keep hearing about how intricate and rich it is, but I've never met anyone who played it. Is the complexity interesting? Or is it 'time-sink' complexity in the vein of Diablo 3 -- as in rather mindless optima-seeking?

I've played off and on since 2003. The corporation I'm part of now has built an ERP and manages a trillion ISK (which at the legal rate is $35,000 USD in assets). We have production facilities -- several of them. We have distribution facilities. Transportation units (local and long-haul). We have combat pilots to protect the transportation. And we have the final delivery points where we actually sell goods -- both re…

Awesome, you guys have taken it to the next level. I played a bit over 2006-2008, but was only ever a grunt. I do know the logistics guys in big corps/alliances have to do a ton of work. It sounds like you put IT properly to work for yourselves, as proper hackers would.

For those observing: There's an in-game internet of sorts, but the real-life Internet plays the same role in EVE as it does in Real Life: it lets players chat, trash-talk, coordinate activities, steal information (hacking and "social engineering"), maintain databases and wikis, write web apps to organize their businesses and optimize their ship fit-outs, and keep track of all the info in the game through APIs (yes, APIs).

For many serious players, EVE is a huuuuuuge time-sink. It's mind-numbing at the micro-level but engaging on the macro-level, and crazy fun/euphoric at the peaks. Some people put more effort into running and expanding their corporations than they do into their real-life jobs.

It's a second job and a second social circle. Essentially a second life. I'm not saying that's a good thing, not at all - it consumes many players' lives and well-being - but the results of all this human labor unleashed in an unfettered free market are fascinating to watch.

Re: It all began with a strange email

#54

Among virtual economies, EVE Online's economy is the real deal. The EVE game economy is I dare say more developed and complex than nearly any other games' - it has many kinds of input factors and stages of production, and many of the production facilities/resources are player-controlled and their fate determines on political maneuvering, war and sabotage between player corporations (guilds). The price of most items i…

[The linking of EVE Online and Dust 514]

I wasn't intending to mention this, but I might as well since people are looking at EVE:

http://ps3.ign.com/articles/122/1221463p1.html

CCP has built a PS3 MMOFPS game called Dust 514. Players play mercenaries battling on planets. The utterly amazing thing is, this game is actually integrated into the EVE universe. Dust players are actually mercenaries being hired and fighting in real time on the planets in the EVE galaxy. EVE players will be able to put up contracts for Dust mercenaries to assault other corporations' facilities, and Dust mercs will be paid by the EVE pilots for their services. What's more, Dust mercs can request live orbital strikes from EVE pilots who are above the planet -- this was demonstrated in March this year and blew the crowd's minds. And surface artillery can hit EVE pilots.

There's even economic integration. The weapons, tanks, equipment used by Dust mercs will be bought from markets supplied by EVE players' production facilities. It's not fixed prices and unlimited item spawning here: mostly everything can be manufactured. And the facilities Dust mercs fight over may include actual factories and labs -- meaning that they will indirectly influence the prices of things and the fates of corporations in the game. Heck, I'm expecting cross-game corporations to form - elite mercs partnering elite pilots to dominate swathes of star systems.

It's literally two games with completely different playstyles built in the same universe, and I haven't heard of anyone pulling this off before. I'm terribly excited to see what the future holds for EVE, Dust, and multiplayer gaming.

----Further reading----

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/03/24/dust-514-presented-a...

>>> During the DUST 514 keynote speech, developers demonstrated orbital bombardment of a DUST match by EVE players in realtime. We saw the orbital command center and surface command centers that enable communication between the two games; we also saw the orbital artillery that let DUST players retaliate against players in orbit.

>>> In addition to PvP matches organised by NPC corporations, there will be co-op PvE survival missions in which players fight off hordes of rogue drones -- living machines with a collective consciousness. The PvE mode will be released in 2012, and there are some exciting plans for expansions scheduled for the year after.

>>> 2013 will bring in e-sports and competitive gaming, with gladiator arenas in which players compete in capture the flag, deathmatch and custom game modes. The matches will be a true spectator sport, with live viewing from both the EVE and DUST game client and even betting on matches. Battles on hostile worlds are also due for release in 2013, with tactically different terrain that may require vehicles to get around. CCP confirmed that the highly requested MTACs (mechs) will also be introduced in 2013.

[Spectator bloodsports, with betting? Crazy!]

Re: It all began with a strange email

#55
post #36

I guess I would be interested in a truly economics oriented game that modeled nations without it being about wars, raids, guilds, spells etc. Not sure if something like that exists though.

It seems like the game would need some sort of non-utopian conflict-driven backdrop to create enough desire for whatever products for there to be an interesting economy.

That's an interesting observation. I wonder if that's true of normal economies as well and that final agents of economy, people, would ideally want in-game/in-life situations in which they can "win" for value to be produced.

Re: It all began with a strange email

#56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Blizzard sure could use someone like him right about now. Diablo 3 has crazy gold hyperinflation due to bots and the real money auction is causing further havoc. It is pretty obvious that this was not well thought out prior to release.

I disagree. I think it was well thought out, I just think it's hard to know what will happen until afterward. As for some of the values of items in Diablo III currently... I think there will be a settling period before prices reflect their true value. Supply will increase until some equilibrium is reached. When we hit some equilibrium we'll know if Blizz needs to tweak things. The gold AH, for instance, has had the o…

I don't think they took into account the bot farming which causes a huge disparity between normal users farming and them getting 6mil gold/hr.

There is also evidence of duping on the Asia servers already requiring a rollback so. So people are actively trying to exploit the system and there are not enough checks in place.

Re: It all began with a strange email

#58

Among virtual economies, EVE Online's economy is the real deal. The EVE game economy is I dare say more developed and complex than nearly any other games' - it has many kinds of input factors and stages of production, and many of the production facilities/resources are player-controlled and their fate determines on political maneuvering, war and sabotage between player corporations (guilds). The price of most items i…

[The linking of EVE Online and Dust 514] I wasn't intending to mention this, but I might as well since people are looking at EVE: http://ps3.ign.com/articles/122/1221463p1.html CCP has built a PS3 MMOFPS game called Dust 514. Players play mercenaries battling on planets. The utterly amazing thing is, this game is actually integrated into the EVE universe. Dust players are actually mercenaries being hired and fighting…

I tried EVE once for a trial, but due to time constraints wasn't able to continue. But it was exactly the reasons cousing this time constraint that are making EVE such a brilliantly stuning game. And this real time inclusion is just marvelous! To bad I don't have a PS3...

Re: It all began with a strange email

#59

Among virtual economies, EVE Online's economy is the real deal. The EVE game economy is I dare say more developed and complex than nearly any other games' - it has many kinds of input factors and stages of production, and many of the production facilities/resources are player-controlled and their fate determines on political maneuvering, war and sabotage between player corporations (guilds). The price of most items i…

[Market PvP and Cartelization]

An interesting quote from the EVE Economic News report jumped out at me:

----

>>> The most interesting high-end mineral this quarter was Nocxium. It was the only mineral that rose in price in June, despite the insurance changes, and continued to rise in July and August. The most drastic increase came in September, though, when Nocxium prices jumped by 52%. The changes made to drone compounds in June reduced the supply of Nocxium, which naturally raised its price.

>>> Realizing that a long-term price increase was taking place, one which would likely create a short term shortage of Nocxium, some enterprising traders played a clever market manipulation. By buying up large parts of the Nocxium available they ensured that a serious shortage of Nocxium was created – or, rather, that the foreseeable shortage was greatly amplified. This took much of the market by surprise, with many a lamentation heard from manufacturers of Tech I goods. This is market PvP at its finest. (emphasis added)

----

While I wouldn't necessarily agree the move was especially clever or unexpected, I think it's interesting that EVE is probably the only game where the term "market PvP" has come to exist. PvP is "player-versus-player", as opposed to PvE ("player-versus-environment"), and normally refers to players engaging each other in combat (duels, raids, etc.). In EVE the concept has been extended to players exploiting arbitrage opportunities in the marketplace and depriving other players of profit.

I think markets have generally been are too large for any group of producers to collude to push up prices, but the domination of certain regions of mineral-rich space has recently resulted in an attempt to game the market and form a cartel: the Organization of Technetium Exporting Corporations, or OTEC. [ the following quote is from http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/230860/page/2 ]

>>> "Technetium, the fabled conflict diamond of the North ... only comes from the northwest regions of the galaxy, and the brutal defenestration of Raidendot from Tenal and Vale finally has brought about something that savvy market-watchers have dreaded since the Technetium bottleneck was first created - a cartel. This OTEC - the Organization of Technetium Exporting Corporations - comprises representatives from the CFC, NCdot, Ev0ke, and PL, the four nullsec entities that control 90% of the Technetium moons in the galaxy. Rather than trying to restrict supply, OTEC has coordinated price-fixing, jacking the price of Tech past 200k per unit - and in doing so driving up the price of every T2 ship and module on the market. ... the nexus of incentives from Escalation, Hulkageddon, and OTEC, macroeconomic extortion of Empire for profit will rapidly transform from a gleam in a nullsec financier’s eye to a brutal fact of economic life in New Eden."

This isn't your typical micro-market-PvP, but an outright exploitation of a privileged position by entrenched corporations. One could argue this is game PvP extended to a new arena (the market) on a macroeconomic level, or one could view it simply as the natural dynamics of an unfettered market economy that is real in all aspects except the virtual nature of its commodities.

Re: It all began with a strange email

#60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. I think it was well thought out, I just think it's hard to know what will happen until afterward. As for some of the values of items in Diablo III currently... I think there will be a settling period before prices reflect their true value. Supply will increase until some equilibrium is reached. When we hit some equilibrium we'll know if Blizz needs to tweak things. The gold AH, for instance, has had the o…

I don't think they took into account the bot farming which causes a huge disparity between normal users farming and them getting 6mil gold/hr. There is also evidence of duping on the Asia servers already requiring a rollback so. So people are actively trying to exploit the system and there are not enough checks in place.

Just to clarify the item dupe was caught quickly and no rollback was needed, they were able to track the item that was the basis for the dupe and all the clones and remove them.
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