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July 2024 Update on Instability Reports on Intel Core 13th/14th Gen Desktop CPUs

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Re: July 2024 Update on Instability Reports on Intel Core 13th/14th Gen Desktop CPUs

#51

Post by jeffbee »

wmf wrote: post #45
jeffbee wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very true and that's why it is odd that microcode has been mentioned here. Surely they mean PCU software (Pcode), or code for whatever they are calling the PCU these days.

I assume Intel's "microcode" updates include the PCU code, maybe some ME code, and whatever other little cores are hiding in the chip.

Well, do they? The operating system can provide microcode updates to a running CPU. Can the operating system patch the PCU, too?

When I look at a "BIOS update" it usually seems to include UEFI, peripheral option ROMs, ME updates, and microcode. So if the PCU is getting patched I would think of it as a BIOS update. I think the ergonomics will be indistinguishable for end users.

Re: July 2024 Update on Instability Reports on Intel Core 13th/14th Gen Desktop CPUs

#52

Post by k12sosse »

cqqxo4zV46cp wrote: post #22
fefe23 wrote: post #18

So on one hand they are saying it's voltage (i.e. something external, not their fault, bad mainboard manufacturers!). On the other hand they are saying they will fix it in microcode. How is that even possible? Are they saying that their CPUs are signaling the mainboards to give them too much voltage? Can someone make sense of this? It reminds me of Steve Jobs' You Are Holding It Wrong moment.

The “you’re holding it wrong!”angle is all your take. They don’t make that claim.

"OK, great, let’s give everybody a case" lives on

Re: July 2024 Update on Instability Reports on Intel Core 13th/14th Gen Desktop CPUs

#53

Post by ChrisArchitect »

(updated from other post about mobile crashes)

Related:

Complaints about crashing 13th,14th Gen Intel CPUs now have data to back them up

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40962736

Intel is selling defective 13-14th Gen CPUs

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40946644

Intel's woes with Core i9 CPUs crashing look worse than we thought

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40954500

Warframe devs report 80% of game crashes happen on Intel's Core i9 chips

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40961637

Re: July 2024 Update on Instability Reports on Intel Core 13th/14th Gen Desktop CPUs

#54

Post by scrlk »

basementcat wrote: post #40
scrlk wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Intel should take a page out of HP's book when it came to dealing with a bug in the HP-35 (first pocket scientific calculator): > The HP-35 had numerical algorithms that exceeded the precision of most mainframe computers at the time. During development, Dave Cochran, who was in charge of the algorithms, tried to use a Burroughs B5500 to validate the results of the HP-35 but instead found too little precision in the f…

I wonder if Mr. Packard's answer would have been different if a recall would have bankrupted the company or necessitated layoff of a substantial percentage of staff.

I can't speak for Dave Packard (or Bill Hewlett) - but I will try to step in to their shoes:

1) HP started off in test and measurement equipment (voltmeters, oscilloscopes etc.) and built a good reputation up. This was their primary business at the time.

2) The customer base of the HP-35 and test and measurement equipment would have a pretty good overlap.

Suppose the bug had been covered up, found, and then the news about the cover up came to light? Would anyone trust HP test and measurement equipment after that? It would probably destroy the company.

Re: July 2024 Update on Instability Reports on Intel Core 13th/14th Gen Desktop CPUs

#55

Post by tedunangst »

ChrisArchitect wrote: post #53

(updated from other post about mobile crashes) Related: Complaints about crashing 13th,14th Gen Intel CPUs now have data to back them up https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40962736 Intel is selling defective 13-14th Gen CPUs https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40946644 Intel's woes with Core i9 CPUs crashing look worse than we thought https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40954500 Warframe devs report 80% of game c…

Not a dupe.

Re: July 2024 Update on Instability Reports on Intel Core 13th/14th Gen Desktop CPUs

#56

Post by silisili »

ChrisArchitect wrote: post #53

(updated from other post about mobile crashes) Related: Complaints about crashing 13th,14th Gen Intel CPUs now have data to back them up https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40962736 Intel is selling defective 13-14th Gen CPUs https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40946644 Intel's woes with Core i9 CPUs crashing look worse than we thought https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40954500 Warframe devs report 80% of game c…

That one is mobile, this one is desktop, which they claim are different causes.

Re: July 2024 Update on Instability Reports on Intel Core 13th/14th Gen Desktop CPUs

#57

Post by tedunangst »

magicalhippo wrote: post #11

There was recently[1] some talk about how the 13th/14th gen mobile chips also had similar issues, though Intel insisted it's something else. Will be interesting to see how that pans out. [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41026123

The mobile issue seems more anecdote than data? Almost as if people on Reddit heard the 13/14 CPUs were bad, then their laptop crashed, and they decided "it happened to me too".

Re: July 2024 Update on Instability Reports on Intel Core 13th/14th Gen Desktop CPUs

#59

Post by magicalhippo »

tedunangst wrote: post #57
magicalhippo wrote: post #11

There was recently[1] some talk about how the 13th/14th gen mobile chips also had similar issues, though Intel insisted it's something else. Will be interesting to see how that pans out. [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41026123

The mobile issue seems more anecdote than data? Almost as if people on Reddit heard the 13/14 CPUs were bad, then their laptop crashed, and they decided "it happened to me too".

Well it's not just[1] redditors from what I can gather:

Now Alderon Games reports that Raptor Lake crashes impact Intel's 13th and 14th-Gen processors in laptops as well.

"Yes we have several laptops that have failed with the same crashes. It's just slightly more rare then the desktop CPU faults," the dev posted.

These are the guys who publicly claimed[2] Intel sold defective chips based on the desktop chips crashing.

[1]: https://www.tomshardware.com/pc-components/cpus/dev-reports-...

[2]: https://www.tomshardware.com/pc-components/cpus/game-publish...

Re: July 2024 Update on Instability Reports on Intel Core 13th/14th Gen Desktop CPUs

#60

Post by giantg2 »

tux3 wrote: post #4

Remains to be seen how the microcode patch affects performance, and how these CPUs that have been affected by over-voltage to the point of instability will have aged in 6 months, or a few years from now. More voltage generally improves stability, because there is more slack to close timing. Instability with high voltage suggests dangerous levels. A software patch can lower the voltage from this point on, but it can't…

I was recently looking at building and buying a couple systems. I've always liked Intel. I went AMD this time.

It seemed like the base frequencies vs boost frequencies were much farther apart on Intel than with most of the AMDs. This was especially true on the laptops were cooling is a larger concern. So I suspect they were pushing limits.

Also, the performance core vs efficiency core stuff seemed kind of gimmicky with so few performance cores and so many efficiency cores. Like look at this 20 core processor! Oh wait, it's really an 8 core when it comes to performance. Hard to compare that to a 12 core 3D cached Ryzen with even higher clock...

I will say, it seems intel might still have some advantages. It seems AMD had an issue supporting ECC with the current chipsets. I almost went Intel because of it. I ended up deciding that DDR5 built in error correction was enough for me. The performance graphs also seem to indicate a smoother throughput suggesting more efficient or elegant execution (less blocking?). But on the average the AMDs seem to be putting out similar end results even if the graph is a bit more "spikey".

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