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Where the Heat and the Thunder Hit Their Shots

nytimes.com

51–60 of 69 posts

Re: Where the Heat and the Thunder Hit Their Shots

#51

As best I can tell it does not include free throw attempts. If that is correct, the data and therefore the visualization is seriously incomplete and misleading.

This graph tells me whether a guy prefers to post up on the right side or the left side... high post or low post... shoot mid-range jumpers or drop back to the three point line.

A colored dot at the free throw line would tell me where he shoots his free throws from, but I already know that.

Re: Where the Heat and the Thunder Hit Their Shots

#52
post #43
post #16

Shane Battier is one of the smartest players in the NBA, and you can see it in action by looking at his shot chart.

There's a massive (old) article on Battier - http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/15/magazine/15Battier-t.html?... Apparently, he's such a good team player (picking good positions, herding opponents into weak positions, doing things which are bad for his stats but good for the team) that he can almost shut down Kobe. OK, Kobe still scores a lot when he's guarded by Battier, but only because Kobe always gets the ball. He'll…

Great article!

"Battier’s game is a weird combination of obvious weaknesses and nearly invisible strengths."

Re: Where the Heat and the Thunder Hit Their Shots

#53

Not sure how many of you are basketball fans, but if you have even a cursory interest in the sport I suggest you check out this year's NBA finals. It is widely regarded as one of the most anticipated match-ups in many years. OKC's stars are all under the age of 24 which means they should dominate for years to come. We have literally watched these guys grow up before our eyes and they finally get their shot at the tit…

It's worth pointing out that Erik Spolestra and Scott Brooks are also two brilliant tacticians. Examples: 1. Kevin Garnett of the Celtics had been troubling the Miami Heat's inside game during the Eastern Conference Finals (partially due to the absence of Chris Bosh). Bosh is fully healthy for Game 7, and he has a great jumper for a big man, so Spolestra plants him in the corner during the crucial 4th quarter of Game…

Every day it blows my mind how much of a tactical/strategic game basketball is. You provide some great examples! It's often hard to see as an outsider. "Why is he shooting 3's? He shoots 25% from beyond the arc!" ...well, he may be trying to draw his defender out so that he can penetrate easier. "Why is he complaining to the ref about that obvious non foul?" ...well, maybe he is priming the ref for the next posession, where he is planning on going to the rim and expects to get fouled. I would love to hear more tactial examples, those are awesome!

Re: Where the Heat and the Thunder Hit Their Shots

#54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's worth pointing out that Erik Spolestra and Scott Brooks are also two brilliant tacticians. Examples: 1. Kevin Garnett of the Celtics had been troubling the Miami Heat's inside game during the Eastern Conference Finals (partially due to the absence of Chris Bosh). Bosh is fully healthy for Game 7, and he has a great jumper for a big man, so Spolestra plants him in the corner during the crucial 4th quarter of Game…

Every day it blows my mind how much of a tactical/strategic game basketball is. You provide some great examples! It's often hard to see as an outsider. "Why is he shooting 3's? He shoots 25% from beyond the arc!" ...well, he may be trying to draw his defender out so that he can penetrate easier. "Why is he complaining to the ref about that obvious non foul?" ...well, maybe he is priming the ref for the next posession…

I'll second the request for good books/articles on the tactical/strategic portion of basketball (also gridiron and soccer)

Re: Where the Heat and the Thunder Hit Their Shots

#55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A player's free throw ability does not need any real visualization. It comes down to number of attempts, and percentage made. Adding them would skew these visualizations and wouldn't tell you anything you couldn't easily figure out by looking at a player's stats.

Hhmm. I was assuming the purpose of such a visualization was to understand the offense, which can't be done without including free throws. Perhaps it serves some other purpose, like employing "front-end developers".

Visualizing the ratio points from the line vs the rest of the floor could be interesting, but it doesn't say much about how they run their offense.

As others noted, free throws occur at the same place every time and would seriously skew the chart - especially for lowpost/longrange players like James Harden.

Maybe a step closer would be showing where a player was fouled that led to shots from the line.

Re: Where the Heat and the Thunder Hit Their Shots

#56
Please forgive me for bringing up something not directly related to this particular series, but economics professor Dave Berri ran some linear regressions on the box score stats of basketball games, and claims he can accurately measure how much wins per season each player is responsible for. (e.g. Team A won 40 games last season, player 1 produced 15 wins, player 2 produced another 10, player 3 produced another 8, and the remaining wins divide among the other players). He has a (sort of official) blog: http://wagesofwins.com/ I'm bringing this up because I think this may be of interest to the HN community. I, for one, was fascinated with his claims and their implications, hope this will interest some of you :-)

Re: Where the Heat and the Thunder Hit Their Shots

#57
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Heat are the most hated team in the league. I'd say Heat and Thunder are tied for most hated team.

I'm a die hard NBA fan and have never heard of anyone hating the Thunder. Why do people hate the Thunder? I can see the argument that some Seattle fans would resent that the team left, but I think their anger would be directed toward the owners involved or David Stern - not the team itself.

For Seattle fans, it's not merely that the team left, it's how they left. Some of Clay Bennett's e-mails got leaked, and they make it clear that while he was publicly promising to try to keep the team in Seattle (which was a condition of the original sale) he was privately saying he'd move the team to OKC ASAP. As long as Clay Bennett is involved with the Thunder, the majority of Sonics fans are going to be against them.

Also remember that of current Thunder players, only Nick Collison was on the team before Clay Bennett arrived. Kevin Durant played one year in Seattle but it was already common knowledge that the team was going to leave, so fans didn't really take to him much. All of the other rotation players were added after the move. So there aren't any beloved players left on the team to mitigate the anger coming out of Seattle.

It's similar to LeBron being thought of as a villain. It's not that he left Cleveland, it's how he left Cleveland. To a lot of fans in both cities, it felt like their guy/team lied about wanting to stay, left under dubious circumstances, and disrespected the fans and the city on the way out.

Re: Where the Heat and the Thunder Hit Their Shots

#58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every day it blows my mind how much of a tactical/strategic game basketball is. You provide some great examples! It's often hard to see as an outsider. "Why is he shooting 3's? He shoots 25% from beyond the arc!" ...well, he may be trying to draw his defender out so that he can penetrate easier. "Why is he complaining to the ref about that obvious non foul?" ...well, maybe he is priming the ref for the next posession…

I'll second the request for good books/articles on the tactical/strategic portion of basketball (also gridiron and soccer)

If you really want to dive in deep, this could be a fun place to start since it covers the upcoming finals:

http://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/uweqv/nba_finals_play_a...

It's done by a redditor, Mens_Rea who has written up tons of stuff:

http://www.reddit.com/user/Mens_Rea/submitted/

It's worth finding a writeup of a non-Thunder/Heat team since they play fairly similar styles.

Re: Where the Heat and the Thunder Hit Their Shots

#59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every day it blows my mind how much of a tactical/strategic game basketball is. You provide some great examples! It's often hard to see as an outsider. "Why is he shooting 3's? He shoots 25% from beyond the arc!" ...well, he may be trying to draw his defender out so that he can penetrate easier. "Why is he complaining to the ref about that obvious non foul?" ...well, maybe he is priming the ref for the next posession…

I'll second the request for good books/articles on the tactical/strategic portion of basketball (also gridiron and soccer)

Zonal Marking (zonalmarking.net) is excellent for soccer. Lots of attention given to formation and player positioning.

Re: Where the Heat and the Thunder Hit Their Shots

#60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A player's free throw ability does not need any real visualization. It comes down to number of attempts, and percentage made. Adding them would skew these visualizations and wouldn't tell you anything you couldn't easily figure out by looking at a player's stats.

Hhmm. I was assuming the purpose of such a visualization was to understand the offense, which can't be done without including free throws. Perhaps it serves some other purpose, like employing "front-end developers".

I was assuming the purpose of such a visualization was to understand the offense, which can't be done without including free throws.

This is an accurate assertion -- teams like the Heat live and die by their free throw attempts -- but the article isn't looking at offense. It examines how well players shoot around the court (as the title states).

Realistically, heatmaps with free throws will just have orange-to-dark red circles at the free throw line. That's boring.

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