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An Open Letter To All Startup Founders

noconformity.co

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Re: An Open Letter To All Startup Founders

#51

Post by mindcrime »

tptacek wrote: post #43
mindcrime wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

professional women as a general rule do not want to celebrate sexuality in the workplace. This strikes me as a continuum, not a binary thing. I'm not saying let's have Eyes Wide Shut style orgies in the office, mind you. I'm just expressing a general, personal feeling that people should loosen up a bit. In regards to the workplace thing, I don't endorse doing things that make people uncomfortable, but I also don't be…

Don't hit on women at the office. Don't make comments about the attractiveness of women at the office. If you're not socially aware enough to distinguish between compliments that are and aren't sexually charged (ie, you are like most guys), don't compliment women's appearance at all at the office. Don't take the office to Hooter's. Don't take the office to strip clubs. Don't put sexualized women or men in your presen…

Don't hit on women at the office.

Of course, because it's not like you spend a significant portion of your life at the office (post school) and the office is probably where a majority of your interactions with other people will occur... nothing like passing up meeting the partner of your dreams because he/she happens to be a co-worker and is therefore automatically off-limits.

What a load of horse-shit.

Flirting, complimenting, asking out co-workers is no sin... Again, there's a line between doing "normal people things" and "sexual harassment." Advocating the former is NOT endorsing the latter.

but at least by being specific I don't have to debate on the slippery slope with you about it.

Who's debating? It's just a friendly discussion as far as I'm concerned. You're welcome to believe whatever you like; and I'm not likely to change my views on any of this based on this discussion.

Re: An Open Letter To All Startup Founders

#52

Post by rdl »

tptacek wrote: post #48
rdl wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The photographic evidence is far worse than the act, at least from a practical perspective. If a customer really wants to go to a strip club, it might be worth it to go, but you don't want to 1) establish a reputation for doing business in strip clubs or 2) have random people later associate your company with strip clubs.

I disagree about the cost/benefit of selling using strip clubs. When you concede to taking customers to strip clubs, you in effect declare your sales team to be a male-only operation. Fuck that. Not worth it.

That's a valid concern. (I don't think I've yet met a female salesperson or even sales engineer in enterprise tech, security, or networking, but being on the leading edge of change there would be desirable.)

Re: An Open Letter To All Startup Founders

#54

Post by tptacek »

mindcrime wrote: post #51
tptacek wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't hit on women at the office. Don't make comments about the attractiveness of women at the office. If you're not socially aware enough to distinguish between compliments that are and aren't sexually charged (ie, you are like most guys), don't compliment women's appearance at all at the office. Don't take the office to Hooter's. Don't take the office to strip clubs. Don't put sexualized women or men in your presen…

Don't hit on women at the office. Of course, because it's not like you spend a significant portion of your life at the office (post school) and the office is probably where a majority of your interactions with other people will occur... nothing like passing up meeting the partner of your dreams because he/she happens to be a co-worker and is therefore automatically off-limits. What a load of horse-shit. Flirting, com…

Your problem meeting women = YOUR PROBLEM.

Keep it out of the office.

When your unwanted advances, innocuous though they seem to you --- the "libertine libertarian" who "prefers to keep his/her workplace relationships intimate" --- result in a complaint from a coworker drafted on a law firm's paperwork, your company will fold like an unsuited 7-2 and pay up, probably to the tune of a year's headcount, and you'll have inflicted that on them because you think your personal life trumps the business.

I've watched this happen multiple times. There's no real fight. Nobody has their day in court. Your company counsel says "we'd be fucking idiots to spend the money taking this to court" and you say "but there's absolutely no merit to the argument" and he says "that doesn't matter" and poof! out goes a person's salary for a year.

You can be a hard-ass about this and call this list "horseshit", but the only reason you haven't been handed your ass on this issue in real life is that most employees aren't savvy enough to have their complaints drafted for $100 by a lawyer. Let me help them out: HAVE YOUR HR COMPLAINT DELIVERED ON A LAW FIRM'S LETTERHEAD SO YOU CAN COLLECT A YEAR OR TWO'S SALARY. There. I feel better. It's fun to rant!

Re: An Open Letter To All Startup Founders

#55

Post by nsxwolf »

m0nastic wrote: post #37
nsxwolf wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No strip clubs and porn shops obviously, but that's apparently not far enough. No place that hires attractive women or even hints at human sexuality as being a positive thing, apparently.

Naturally, the point of trying to promote a professional, inclusive workplace is really a scheme to reinforce sexual shame on a mass scale. How about places that just don't objectify a group of people?

Professional and inclusive? Why does every company have to have the same watered down, one size fits all culture?

Are there any situations left in the workplace where we should be expected to vote with our feet?

Re: An Open Letter To All Startup Founders

#56

Post by temphn »

rdl wrote: post #26
planetguy wrote: post #13

The issue doesn't have much to do with gender, really. Firstly, one need not be male in order to be happy going to a place like Twin Peaks. The only time I've been to Hooters, I was dragged there by a bunch of chicks. Secondly, one need not be female in order to be unhappy going to a place like Twin Peaks. Older, more respectable-looking men, men with daughters who would be round about the right age to be waitresses…

I think she's arguing that even if 100% of the current employee participants are happy going to a hooters restaurant, posting a photo of it will deter future female hires. In reality, it won't deter only female hires. I have nothing against going to places like this (or strip clubs: subsidized steak, at least in Oregon) socially, but a fair number of people wouldn't want to go socially, and I absolutely wouldn't want…

What if 100% of current employees posted a photo of themselves at a gay pride parade, next to scantily clad gay men?

It's on their private time. But something tells me that Kathryn Hough wouldn't dream of attacking them.

Re: An Open Letter To All Startup Founders

#57

Post by mindcrime »

tptacek wrote: post #54
mindcrime wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't hit on women at the office. Of course, because it's not like you spend a significant portion of your life at the office (post school) and the office is probably where a majority of your interactions with other people will occur... nothing like passing up meeting the partner of your dreams because he/she happens to be a co-worker and is therefore automatically off-limits. What a load of horse-shit. Flirting, com…

Your problem meeting women = YOUR PROBLEM. Keep it out of the office. When your unwanted advances, innocuous though they seem to you --- the "libertine libertarian" who "prefers to keep his/her workplace relationships intimate" --- result in a complaint from a coworker drafted on a law firm's paperwork, your company will fold like an unsuited 7-2 and pay up, probably to the tune of a year's headcount, and you'll have…

I've watched this happen multiple times.

I've witnessed multiple auto accidents as well, and I still drive to work.

There. I feel better. It's fun to rant!

Cool, glad to hear it!

Re: An Open Letter To All Startup Founders

#58

Post by tptacek »

mindcrime wrote: post #57
tptacek wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your problem meeting women = YOUR PROBLEM. Keep it out of the office. When your unwanted advances, innocuous though they seem to you --- the "libertine libertarian" who "prefers to keep his/her workplace relationships intimate" --- result in a complaint from a coworker drafted on a law firm's paperwork, your company will fold like an unsuited 7-2 and pay up, probably to the tune of a year's headcount, and you'll have…

I've watched this happen multiple times. I've witnessed multiple auto accidents as well, and I still drive to work. There. I feel better. It's fun to rant! Cool, glad to hear it!

I've witnessed a bunch of auto accidents too, and been in one. I don't drive like I did when I was 19 anymore.

Re: An Open Letter To All Startup Founders

#59

Post by rdl »

temphn wrote: post #56
rdl wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think she's arguing that even if 100% of the current employee participants are happy going to a hooters restaurant, posting a photo of it will deter future female hires. In reality, it won't deter only female hires. I have nothing against going to places like this (or strip clubs: subsidized steak, at least in Oregon) socially, but a fair number of people wouldn't want to go socially, and I absolutely wouldn't want…

What if 100% of current employees posted a photo of themselves at a gay pride parade, next to scantily clad gay men? It's on their private time. But something tells me that Kathryn Hough wouldn't dream of attacking them.

I'd reject that on a company site or blog, unless I were selling something like PlanetOut. Expressing that you're EOE is good, but anything which implies exclusionary is as a practical matter bad for hiring. I wouldn't want people posting photos of themselves at a political rally either. If it's something like some small subset of employees go to a pride event (or post one of the "it's gets better" messages), that's a net positive, but "everyone at our company is homosexual; do not apply if you aren't" would be horrible.

(and of course what she as an individual thinks is appropriate isn't necessarily the final say for all companies, so attacking her presumed prejudices doesn't really win the argument...)

It's as much a marketing issue (to customers and potential hires) as it is a legal one. Going to hooters is 100% legal. It may prejudice a jury against you if there are discrimination lawsuits for other issues in the future, and it may make sales or hiring harder in some cases.

I see extremely limited upside to company trips to places like that, and lots of downside, so it's a bad idea.

There are lots of issues which fall on various points in this kind of branding. Personally, I'm fine with losing sales to anyone who dislikes firearms irrationally. Company shooting trips, sanction carry at the office on premises, etc are fine with me. As a practical decision that's a minor dislike by 10-20% of people, strong like by 5-10%, and irrelevant to most. Fine in the computer security industry, but if I were in the fashion, childcare, or animal-welfare industry, there would be a lot different numbers, so it wouldn't work.

Re: An Open Letter To All Startup Founders

#60

Post by rdl »

maxprogram wrote: post #41
planetguy wrote: post #13

The issue doesn't have much to do with gender, really. Firstly, one need not be male in order to be happy going to a place like Twin Peaks. The only time I've been to Hooters, I was dragged there by a bunch of chicks. Secondly, one need not be female in order to be unhappy going to a place like Twin Peaks. Older, more respectable-looking men, men with daughters who would be round about the right age to be waitresses…

And at least they are in good company. At a Berkshire Hathaway board meeting: http://i1-news.softpedia-static.com/images/news2/Bill-Gates-...

Berkshire Hathaway has something like 10 employees, right, with a median age around 60. This kind of thing making recruiting harder probably doesn't affect them as much as it would an operating business.
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