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Eric Raymond: Why I think RMS is a fanatic, and why that matters

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Re: Eric Raymond: Why I think RMS is a fanatic, and why that matters

#51

Post by _delirium »

jiggy2011 wrote: post #45
papsosouid wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, RMS at least used to write code. ESR has always been a creepy hacker fanboy, latching on to and idolizing hacker culture, but has never been part of it, and never produced any code.

I'm curious, how does ESR make a living? He seems to spend a lot of time running his personal site (which carries no charges or ads) and has written a bunch of Open Source software. I don't see him doing anything that would put money into his bank account, or is he being sponsored by some company? If so who?

I believe he was employed by the Open Source Initiative (which he co-founded) for some years, as its President. So indirectly funded by the companies that donated to OSI.

Re: Eric Raymond: Why I think RMS is a fanatic, and why that matters

#52

Post by guelo »

The problem with the 'Open Source' movement is that it stopped the free software revolution in its tracks by opening up a third way that relieved the pressure that was building up on corporations by the growing mountain of GPL code. That ultimately has allowed corporations to coopt the work of the volunteer community and turn around and attack us with even more locked down proprietary code such as the iPhone.

Re: Eric Raymond: Why I think RMS is a fanatic, and why that matters

#53

Post by tptacek »

"There is too much at stake for me to be diplomatically dishonest about this – it did immense damage to the cause of openness, and I had to spend a good many years remediating that damage."

Exactly what is at stake in Raymond's communication of his opinion about Stallman? If the answer is "nothing", is it worth pointing out how flawed his analysis is?

Re: Eric Raymond: Why I think RMS is a fanatic, and why that matters

#54

Post by cynicalkane »

arthi wrote: post #49
cstross wrote: post #38

We need people like RMS. He marks one side of the Overton Window framing the debate on freedom and software. (Overton window: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window ) This doesn't mean he's right but what he does is necessary . If he didn't exist we'd need to invent him (or someone like him). (Oh, and he is indeed a fanatic, but of the pacifist variety -- not the kind who's interested in killing people to enforc…

No doubt you feel the same way about Rick Santorum.

To elaborate on this, fanaticism often looks like a great idea to those allied with the fanatics, even if they disagree with their behavior. But people should not feel entitled to fanaticism because they think they are right, because that's how you get people like Santorum. Everyone thinks they are right, after all. It's hypocritical to say fanaticism is a luxury permissible to the "good guys" and not to the "bad guys".

Re: Eric Raymond: Why I think RMS is a fanatic, and why that matters

#55

Post by graeme »

arthi wrote: post #49
cstross wrote: post #38

We need people like RMS. He marks one side of the Overton Window framing the debate on freedom and software. (Overton window: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window ) This doesn't mean he's right but what he does is necessary . If he didn't exist we'd need to invent him (or someone like him). (Oh, and he is indeed a fanatic, but of the pacifist variety -- not the kind who's interested in killing people to enforc…

No doubt you feel the same way about Rick Santorum.

That would only be true if he thought santorumms ideas were generally good, but too extreme.

Re: Eric Raymond: Why I think RMS is a fanatic, and why that matters

#56

Post by papsosouid »

brlewis wrote: post #26
papsosouid wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, RMS at least used to write code. ESR has always been a creepy hacker fanboy, latching on to and idolizing hacker culture, but has never been part of it, and never produced any code.

ESR did not bring us emacs or gcc, but he has made some contributions: http://www.catb.org/~esr/software.html I'm most grateful for vc-mode in emacs. (I'm merely addressing a factual point and in no way excusing the way ESR treats RMS in writing.)

Certainly "never produced any code" was hyperbole, but "contributions" is being pretty generous. Hobbling together some random scripts nobody has ever used isn't really contributing. Most of what he has tried to contribute has been rejected.

Re: Eric Raymond: Why I think RMS is a fanatic, and why that matters

#57

Post by nickpinkston »

arthi wrote: post #49
cstross wrote: post #38

We need people like RMS. He marks one side of the Overton Window framing the debate on freedom and software. (Overton window: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window ) This doesn't mean he's right but what he does is necessary . If he didn't exist we'd need to invent him (or someone like him). (Oh, and he is indeed a fanatic, but of the pacifist variety -- not the kind who's interested in killing people to enforc…

No doubt you feel the same way about Rick Santorum.

I'd say I feel the same way about Ron Paul - he brings a refreshing perspective to politics, but he's certainly not right on everything.

Santorum adds nothing to the debate but repetition of the narrative that's already going on. I should add to this that no one ever likes the same tactic they use to be used against them - in this case having Stallman define an extreme position to maintain a more pragmatic narrative.

All considered, I'm glad both Stallman and Paul are doing their thing - even if I don't agree with them much of the time.

Re: Eric Raymond: Why I think RMS is a fanatic, and why that matters

#58

Post by btilly »

marquis wrote: post #7
Karunamon wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>His 'fanatical' language of evil etc. is because he truly believes those things to be evil. Any fanatic truly believes themselves to be right. That said, I'm a free software advocate. I see where the guy is coming from. I agree on most points. The one that I absolutely cannot get behind is that not releasing the source is evil.

>not releasing the source is evil I believe it's a cultural necessity given how we make money as software developers. Hardware developers have a buffer in terms of actual production, which requires significant investment. You can reverse engineer any hardware you have in your hands but it's unlikely given 2012 technology that you can mass-produce it and steal revenue from the copied source (patents notwithstanding).…

Not true.

A number of years ago a friend of mine took the largest 10 software companies by revenue, and broke out their software revenue according to whether it was from sales of software, or from consulting.

Microsoft was the only one who made more from sales than consulting. Every other one made more from consulting. Generally at least an order of magnitude more.

I am sure that a similar exercise today would produce similar results.

This fact strongly suggests that copyright protection is not essential for the livelihoods of most software developers.

Re: Eric Raymond: Why I think RMS is a fanatic, and why that matters

#59

Post by Jach »

cromulent wrote: post #18

"You assist an evil system most effectively by obeying its orders and decrees. An evil system never deserves such allegiance. Allegiance to it means partaking of the evil. A good person will resist an evil system with his or her whole soul." -Mahatma Gandhi Copied and pasted from stallman.org. I understand the rationale of ESR and many others, but RMS is trying to move the centrepoint of the discussion as far as he c…

A quote I like from Stallman himself more than any of Gandhi's: "They seem to have learned the habit of cowering before authority even when not actually threatened. How very nice for authority. I decided not to learn this particular lesson."
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