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America Has an Answer to the Biggest Problem with EVs

theatlantic.com

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Re: America Has an Answer to the Biggest Problem with EVs

#51

Post by magicalhippo »

janalsncm wrote: post #37

> China, where new EVs can go for about $10,000 or less This is the part that hit me. In America we have no idea how much we are overpaying for things. There are plenty of reasons, sure, but at the end of the day things are wildly expensive with little to no acknowledgment from the government.

Things can be very cheap indeed if you can use forced labor[1], don't have to consider the impact on the environment[2] and such.

[1]: https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/07/02/hrw-urges-european-commi...

[2]: https://www.scmp.com/business/article/3232456/your-made-chin...

Re: America Has an Answer to the Biggest Problem with EVs

#52

Post by gamblor956 »

janalsncm wrote: post #37

> China, where new EVs can go for about $10,000 or less This is the part that hit me. In America we have no idea how much we are overpaying for things. There are plenty of reasons, sure, but at the end of the day things are wildly expensive with little to no acknowledgment from the government.

Chinese EVs also don't contain most of the safety features that you'll find standard in Western cars.

Nor will a sub-$10k Chinese car compare to the build quality of even a $20k American car.

As with Temu, there's a reason Chinese EVs are super cheap.

Re: America Has an Answer to the Biggest Problem with EVs

#53

Post by tomohelix »

magicalhippo wrote: post #51
janalsncm wrote: post #37

> China, where new EVs can go for about $10,000 or less This is the part that hit me. In America we have no idea how much we are overpaying for things. There are plenty of reasons, sure, but at the end of the day things are wildly expensive with little to no acknowledgment from the government.

Things can be very cheap indeed if you can use forced labor[1], don't have to consider the impact on the environment[2] and such. [1]: https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/07/02/hrw-urges-european-commi... [2]: https://www.scmp.com/business/article/3232456/your-made-chin...

I mean, the US already has forced labor (i.e. prison labor).

And for what it worth, China is leading the way in green energy transition. They are pushing it much faster and adopting it way better than anything the US has historically tried. Remember they only have a few decades into their own industrial revolution compared to the West's hundreds of years and they had already exceeded most if not all other countries in terms of progress.

The US doesn't even have a functional high speed rail system yet. Meanwhile, China built its own national rail network in less than 2 decades.

Re: America Has an Answer to the Biggest Problem with EVs

#54

Post by ars »

asdff wrote: post #28
ars wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We could make $5K glorified golf carts street-legal They did that: https://www.cato.org/blog/im-government-im-here-give-you-gol... (the article is kind of snarky but 100% accurate). And I know people who bought those free golf carts (that's how I heard about the program in the first place - if I had a place to park the thing I would have done it myself), drove them around a little and then they broke and that was t…

I'm surprised people didn't like them. they are super popular in places that tolerate them e.g. more vacation/resort style towns as the designated grocery getter once you've parked the main car for the weekend. I'd love to have one. I've seen like two of them in the grocery store lot before here in socal.

They failed too quickly to be useful. Additionally they ran on banks of cheap car batteries that were too expensive to replace because there were so many of them, and while the manufacturer could get cheap ones, as a consumer you couldn't.

They were a toy basically, and an utter waste of government money.

Re: America Has an Answer to the Biggest Problem with EVs

#55

Post by magicalhippo »

tomohelix wrote: post #53
magicalhippo wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Things can be very cheap indeed if you can use forced labor[1], don't have to consider the impact on the environment[2] and such. [1]: https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/07/02/hrw-urges-european-commi... [2]: https://www.scmp.com/business/article/3232456/your-made-chin...

I mean, the US already has forced labor (i.e. prison labor). And for what it worth, China is leading the way in green energy transition. They are pushing it much faster and adopting it way better than anything the US has historically tried. Remember they only have a few decades into their own industrial revolution compared to the West's hundreds of years and they had already exceeded most if not all other countries i…

Almost like you can get amazing things done in a short time if you get everyone pulling in the same direction, willingly or not...

But I agree, the massive amounts of cheap solar panels and EVs has and will continue to make a significant impact. It sucks that they're built on such lousy foundations though...

Re: America Has an Answer to the Biggest Problem with EVs

#56

Post by [deleted] »

adam_arthur wrote: post #42
janalsncm wrote: post #37

> China, where new EVs can go for about $10,000 or less This is the part that hit me. In America we have no idea how much we are overpaying for things. There are plenty of reasons, sure, but at the end of the day things are wildly expensive with little to no acknowledgment from the government.

The government is more interested in protecting autoworker jobs in the US than lowering the cost to a broader set of consumers, unfortunately. If we allowed Chinese autos into the country free of tariffs, prices would almost certainly decline materially in real terms over the next few years.

[deleted]

Re: America Has an Answer to the Biggest Problem with EVs

#57

Post by bryanlarsen »

gamblor956 wrote: post #52
janalsncm wrote: post #37

> China, where new EVs can go for about $10,000 or less This is the part that hit me. In America we have no idea how much we are overpaying for things. There are plenty of reasons, sure, but at the end of the day things are wildly expensive with little to no acknowledgment from the government.

Chinese EVs also don't contain most of the safety features that you'll find standard in Western cars. Nor will a sub-$10k Chinese car compare to the build quality of even a $20k American car. As with Temu, there's a reason Chinese EVs are super cheap.

The BYD Seagull, which is what most people are referring to when talking about $10,000 Chinese cars, has European homologation. IOW, it meets European safety specs for freeway use.

It's the $5000 Chinese cars that are missing the safety features.

Re: America Has an Answer to the Biggest Problem with EVs

#58

Post by _heimdall »

gruez wrote: post #38
Dalewyn wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>1. We should tax vehicles according to their road damage, i.e., O((weight/axles)^4*axles); Fair, though keep in mind that EVs and specifically their batteries are damn heavy putting them as sedans right up there with the bigger pickups and SUVs. Taxes on EVs will also have to compensate for fuel taxes that would not apply to them. >2. Vehicles with bumpers/hoods higher than Xcm should never be allowed in the left la…

>What they are doing is buying the vehicle using company funds as company equipment and then writing it down as a loss on their Income/Loss sheet. There's nothing wrong with it and you should do so for any company purchases. I think the "fraud" comes from the fact that they use it for personal purposes but fail to declare it on their income tax returns as they should[1]. For the typical case of a general contractor o…

I believe the argument is generally that they are advertising for the business whenever driving a company vehicle with logos on it.

As the GP said, the line is very unclear for small businesses. It isn't technically fraud, though, if our current laws allow it. Fight to change the laws if you want to, but until then it can't be fraud.

Re: America Has an Answer to the Biggest Problem with EVs

#59

Post by _heimdall »

sitkack wrote: post #21
thebeardisred wrote: post #3

My meta-takeaway is that it behooves* the industry to further standardize on the interfaces between components. That will increase repairability over time when coupled with the correct legislation. *Based on the current OEM/supplier relationship, network of repair shops, etc. All of the post sales businesses built up to support the initial sale.

> My meta-takeaway is that it behooves* the industry to further standardize on the interfaces between components. This is what the government along with standards bodies and manufacturers should be doing. It shouldn't be a market decision, because the market can't optimize this outcome.

How do you do this without stifling innovation? The government will always be slow to respond and if they're the ones setting standards they would first have to know what is currently the optimal component interface for every major component on an EV.

At that point you end up with the government asking the industry to tell them what the standards should be and how to regulate it, likely they ask the industry to regulate itself then as well. Why have the government involved at all?

Re: America Has an Answer to the Biggest Problem with EVs

#60

Post by rurp »

asdff wrote: post #36
Dylan16807 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Batteries do keep getting cheaper, and from what I've seen even at median they do better than 10 years, let alone at beat. Though just to toss some numbers out, if you had to buy a $10k battery every 150k miles that's definitely affordable.

The thing is with the used car market is that maintenance cost is not paid by all the owners. Its paid only by who happens to be holding the hot potato when the battery is screwed, and most people with means aren't holding a car to 150k miles, that's about how many miles an ICE car has in the maybe $5kish used range. The sort of person buying a $5k car can't afford a $10k battery. They might not have access to $10k o…

I feel like the battery cost issue is being hand-waved by too many people here. For most people driving a car with well over 100k miles, spending $10k to replace a battery is a total non-starter. In addition to batteries degrading, there's also the risk of an accident. Some crashes that would be fixable for an older ICE car will require replacing the battery in an EV at a cost far greater than the car would be worth, making it non-viable. The battery is a risk factor that many people already worried about their finances won't want to take on.
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