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Indonesia’s Emergence

insidestory.org.au

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Re: Indonesia’s Emergence

#51

Post by wahern »

EdwardDiego wrote: post #22
csomar wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the independence stories are complete B.S. They were enabled by the US to kick out the Europeans out of their colonies. It has resulted in the creation on some of the most corrupt and mismanaged governments and centralization of power in the hand of these rulers. Indonesia could have been 20-30 separate countries. The punchline is that this is hurting the US even more now as that keeping these governments ali…

> It has resulted in the creation on some of the most corrupt and mismanaged governments and centralization of power in the hand of these rulers. Yes, but, colonial rule was a) not at all sustainable b) probably thoroughly corrupt in favour of different rulers and c) directly responsible for the shape of Indonesian politics today. So, yeah.

Indonesia had been colonized long before Europeans came around. The dominant political dynasties in the region were Hindu, then Buddhist, and then Islamic, all of which originated over seas as merchant trading communities, in some cases only a few centuries before Europeans arrived. Persians had been sailing to Indonesia for millennia, and Indonesia was a destination for the Muslim slave trade (of Africans) before the New World was even discovered by Europeans.

This is even more starkly evident in its neighbor, Malaysia, where the Islamic dynasty had only been established for about a century before Europeans showed up. Ethnographically, to be "Malay" in Malaysia is to claim descent from overseas colonists from elsewhere in SE Asia, not from the "native" peoples of the peninsula (i.e. those who migrated prior to recorded history).

Because of its size and diversity (geographic and cultural), it's entirely unsurprising that Indonesia is politically... complex. Portuguese, Dutch, and British colonial periods blend almost seamlessly into its long history, which perhaps more than any other region in the world is a product of serial colonization by seafaring empires. But similar patterns are seen throughout SE Asia--rich, dynamic, if sometimes contentious, admixture of cultures resulting from millennia of seafaring, both peaceful and in conquest.

Re: Indonesia’s Emergence

#52

Post by chilling »

keybored wrote: post #43
chilling wrote: post #4

Modern history of Indonesia is also brutal, strange and very hard to grasp and accept. Just 6 months ago, a new generation choose a murderer, linked with previous coup as their new president because he was looking cute and post dancing videos on tiktok. [I live in Indonesia as an expact]

Thanks for the disclaimer. I’m not gonna put any weight to an expat saying that someone chose someone Because He Was (Looking) Cute.

my disclaimer was supposed to mean: I live here, I am interested in the current and past history of this country, I am involved, I have an Indonesian partner and Indonesian friends, but you have your right to seek the truth for yourself, which I strongly encourage you to do.

Re: Indonesia’s Emergence

#53

Post by linearrust »

csomar wrote: post #19
defrost wrote: post #6

The US and UN sanctioned the Act of No Choice , a rigged "vote" that saw Indonesia take over West Papua and continue with a largely unreported brutality to this day. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Act_of_Free_Choice https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papua_conflict

Most of the independence stories are complete B.S. They were enabled by the US to kick out the Europeans out of their colonies. It has resulted in the creation on some of the most corrupt and mismanaged governments and centralization of power in the hand of these rulers. Indonesia could have been 20-30 separate countries. The punchline is that this is hurting the US even more now as that keeping these governments ali…

> Most of the independence stories are complete B.S.

Not most. All. Including ours. All independence stories are nonsense if you bother to think about it.

> They were enabled by the US to kick out the Europeans out of their colonies.

That's some serious revisionist nonsense. Not only was the US was one of major 'european' colonizers in east asia since the early 1800s, it was also a major guarantor/protector of european colonial interests in east asia. The US fought the japanese in ww2 mainly to protect european colonial interests. Delve a little deeper than superficial propaganda. The vietnam war was the US fighting the vietnamese to protect european/french colonial interests. Heck today, the US is the major 'european' colonial power in east asia, and the rest of the world, protecting european colonial interests.

> The punchline is that this is hurting the US even more now as that keeping these governments aligned is a much harder job than imagined and they are being scooped by Chinese influence in the present day.

'Scooped by china'. What gibberish. Does that mean they were 'scooped by the US' after ww2?

Re: Indonesia’s Emergence

#54

Post by Log_out_ »

krageon wrote: post #30
thriftwy wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think many of Indonesian communists being killed were colonizers by ethnicity or social status.

Certainly not in 1965, approximately twenty years after they became independent. There were no colonizers left by then, everyone the Indonesians saw that way either fled or was murdered in the street by 1947 or so.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Indonesians

Re: Indonesia’s Emergence

#55

Post by thehappypm »

linearrust wrote: post #53
csomar wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the independence stories are complete B.S. They were enabled by the US to kick out the Europeans out of their colonies. It has resulted in the creation on some of the most corrupt and mismanaged governments and centralization of power in the hand of these rulers. Indonesia could have been 20-30 separate countries. The punchline is that this is hurting the US even more now as that keeping these governments ali…

> Most of the independence stories are complete B.S. Not most. All. Including ours. All independence stories are nonsense if you bother to think about it. > They were enabled by the US to kick out the Europeans out of their colonies. That's some serious revisionist nonsense. Not only was the US was one of major 'european' colonizers in east asia since the early 1800s, it was also a major guarantor/protector of europe…

“ The US fought the japanese in ww2 mainly to protect european colonial interests.”

Pearl Harbor was the main reason. And perhaps the Philippines (a US territory at the time). But the US gave up most of its overseas empire after the war, so it’s hard to argue they fought the war to keep their colonies

Re: Indonesia’s Emergence

#56

Post by kaycey2022 »

BurningFrog wrote: post #42
csomar wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the independence stories are complete B.S. They were enabled by the US to kick out the Europeans out of their colonies. It has resulted in the creation on some of the most corrupt and mismanaged governments and centralization of power in the hand of these rulers. Indonesia could have been 20-30 separate countries. The punchline is that this is hurting the US even more now as that keeping these governments ali…

You can think of today's Indonesia as a Javanese colonial empire. It's hard to say if being ruled from Jakarta is better than being ruled from Amsterdam.

It’s obviously better being ruled by someone who lives closer to you, looks like you, speaks like you, and shares your values. That is basically how participants in a representative democracy think. Even if my local ruler is a corrupt incompetent PoS, I’d rather have him than some alien calling the shots. I acknowledge that perspectives can be biased.

I’m a native of a former colony so I absolutely hate colonialism and don’t see any good coming out of it. Even though it I try to detach myself from that situation, I can see some good things have been done. But I think it’s fair to reason that we could have done those things ourselves given enough time and interaction with the outside world.

At the same time it appears to me that people who are natives of former coloniser powers who want to keep apologising for and even glorifying the imperial times do so by minimising the extremely harmful effects of settler imperialism. Maybe they are compensating for the rise of a section of their culture which is too apologetic of their own history.

So even though the actual events of history and their consequences are complex, in the current time I’d rather have a king/queen who has all their eggs in my basket than have a backup option somewhere else.

Re: Indonesia’s Emergence

#57

Post by EdwardDiego »

krageon wrote: post #29
EdwardDiego wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It has resulted in the creation on some of the most corrupt and mismanaged governments and centralization of power in the hand of these rulers. Yes, but, colonial rule was a) not at all sustainable b) probably thoroughly corrupt in favour of different rulers and c) directly responsible for the shape of Indonesian politics today. So, yeah.

The point is that these colonies were first fucked by being colonies and then fucked during the process of not being colonies anymore. Nobody is implying colonial rule is better.

> Nobody is implying colonial rule is better.

The person I responded to was heavily implying that.

Re: Indonesia’s Emergence

#58

Post by kaycey2022 »

rd07 wrote: post #18
chilling wrote: post #4

Modern history of Indonesia is also brutal, strange and very hard to grasp and accept. Just 6 months ago, a new generation choose a murderer, linked with previous coup as their new president because he was looking cute and post dancing videos on tiktok. [I live in Indonesia as an expact]

As an Indonesian, I have to admit that most of our people are susceptible to cheap but clever personal branding. Before running on 2024 presidential election, Prabowo Subianto (the elected president) was imaged as a firm and authoritative former general. But, when he run on the presidential election, he changed his personal image to be a "gemoy" (a slang for chubby and cute kid/baby) and even dancing around with his…

What do people there vote for? Is it identities or is it pressing issues or propaganda or what?

Re: Indonesia’s Emergence

#59

Post by EdwardDiego »

graemep wrote: post #41
krageon wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is that these colonies were first fucked by being colonies and then fucked during the process of not being colonies anymore. Nobody is implying colonial rule is better.

On the other hand its not that hard to find people in former colonies who think colonial rule was better - if they have been sufficiently badly run since independence. Colonial rule is obviously worse than honest democratic government, but that is not what a lot of countries have had. I am a citizen of both a former British colony and a British citizen and I have fairly recent ancestry from another former British col…

Based on your blog, you have Sri Lankan ancestry. From the failed Dutch attempts at colonisation. That came after the failed Portugese attempts.

Did British colonisation really have significant local support from the Sinhalese?

Because I feel like the fact that there were two Kandyan wars before Britain managed to take control of Sri Lanka is a strong argument against that.

And if the British colonisation had so much local support, then why did they import Tamils, surely the Sinhalese were eager to work for them?

Colonisers have always played off groups/tribes/petty kingdoms against each other to gain a foothold. Substantial support? Citation needed, seriously.

And as for India not being held by arms alone, true, it was also held by alliances with petty kingdoms and diplomats playing them off against each other.

As well as a bunch of armed soldiers invading when push came to shove.

This is exactly how it played out in Ireland too. Where my family is from - on the coloniser side.

But then India wasn't a coherent polity at the time - which is the point I made in a previous paragraph about how colonisers rolled.

Re: Indonesia’s Emergence

#60

Post by EdwardDiego »

wahern wrote: post #51
EdwardDiego wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It has resulted in the creation on some of the most corrupt and mismanaged governments and centralization of power in the hand of these rulers. Yes, but, colonial rule was a) not at all sustainable b) probably thoroughly corrupt in favour of different rulers and c) directly responsible for the shape of Indonesian politics today. So, yeah.

Indonesia had been colonized long before Europeans came around. The dominant political dynasties in the region were Hindu, then Buddhist, and then Islamic, all of which originated over seas as merchant trading communities, in some cases only a few centuries before Europeans arrived. Persians had been sailing to Indonesia for millennia, and Indonesia was a destination for the Muslim slave trade (of Africans) before th…

I'm not sure you understand what colonisation means.
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