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How to do the jhanas

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Re: How to do the jhanas

#51

Post by Tao3300 »

ergonaught wrote: post #33

> But with just over 20 hours of practice, I progressed through all nine jhanic states. This is simply not true. It would be silly to deny that the author had some particular experience(s), but author absolutely did not have the described (quoted) experience. This "words have whatever meaning I decide they have" world goes absolutely nowhere productive or useful. I'd love it if you all would stop doing it.

This is exactly the kind of dismissal I was looking for to confirm the validity of the author's claims.

Re: How to do the jhanas

#52

Post by saulpw »

0x1ceb00da wrote: post #48
pas wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

there's no real difference between you, me, and Mr. Gautama in mental structure. circumstances of course matter, but instruction, especially the interactivity is decisive. yes, there's a practice element, to do the dissociative steps well, to get the right body sensations amplified with the right mental ones, etc. the start-up-y way is not better or worse for you if it works. the traditional way(s) work vy constraini…

> there's no real difference between you, me, and Mr. Gautama in mental structure. This is just not true. There are athletes with sub 100ms reaction time. The average person is over twice of that. It only makes sense that there are meditative athletes whose abilities surpass those of the average guy.

In your analogy, we are all capable of running (probably), even if some of us are better at it.

Re: How to do the jhanas

#53

Post by HexDecOctBin »

dnissley wrote: post #43
wayoverthecloud wrote: post #22

Oh spirituality. The only thing that I spent years of life trying to understand and ended up realizing that there's nothing to understand. It sounds corny and cliche but there's no other way I can put it. I have/had meditated for almost 5 years of my life for almost 2 hours a day(unless I am traveling/or sick etc), so I think I am experienced enough to help beginner meditators. Also being from a Sanskrit-derived-lang…

You see the issue though with the approach you're advocating? "Oh spoiler alert, you will actually feel like you are being more sadder after you started meditating.... enjoy the process" So I'll start to not enjoy myself by becoming sadder, but I just need to enjoy it?

Because the purpose of meditation is not to make you happy, it is to help you understand the Satya/Truth to help you see beyond the Maya/Illusion and lead you towards Moksha/Liberation (from Suffering/Dukkha if you are Buddhist, from Punarjanam/Reincarnation if you are Hindu). Of course, if you don't believe in any of that, then it is useless for you. Truth is supposed to make you sad, otherwise everyone will be looking for it.

Westerners just turn everything into a commercial product, look in this very thread -- some people felt a bit of relaxation and decided that they are now enlightened souls who have figured out the real deal without having to deal with the dirty Brown-skinned spirituality.

Re: How to do the jhanas

#54

Post by russelldjimmy »

dnissley wrote: post #43
wayoverthecloud wrote: post #22

Oh spirituality. The only thing that I spent years of life trying to understand and ended up realizing that there's nothing to understand. It sounds corny and cliche but there's no other way I can put it. I have/had meditated for almost 5 years of my life for almost 2 hours a day(unless I am traveling/or sick etc), so I think I am experienced enough to help beginner meditators. Also being from a Sanskrit-derived-lang…

You see the issue though with the approach you're advocating? "Oh spoiler alert, you will actually feel like you are being more sadder after you started meditating.... enjoy the process" So I'll start to not enjoy myself by becoming sadder, but I just need to enjoy it?

The issue isn’t with the approach. The issue is with the limitations of language.

I did a vipassana course a few years ago and have been meditating semi-regularly ever since. I’ve been through a few difficult times with my family since then (not materially, but emotionally). In those difficult times, my most deep traumas were triggered - sadness, rage, frustration, anxiety all came rushing out.

But because of the meditative practices, I had learned to “witness” these emotions rather than be completely consumed by then. In the meditative practices I follow, I’ve learned to completely sense my body and the result is that my attention has moved away from my thoughts (which are the source of most of our suffering) to bodily sensations. These resulted in situations which are something like, “Oh I’m feeling a lot of rage and sadness. My chest is feeling an intense, almost painful sensation. My breathing is heavy and fast.” Whereas normally I’d have thought, “I’M GOING TO RIP THIS F**ERS HEAD OFF!!”.

And guess what, when the power of the emotion is “seen” in this way… I began to enjoy it. Enjoying my sadness and anger.

EDIT: well these days, I realise I’ve been chasing that state ever since :) and now my challenge is to let go. I’ve certainly become a bit rusty since then, but I don’t give myself enough credit for how far I’ve come. The journey never ends! I guess one just takes life as it comes :))

Re: How to do the jhanas

#56

Post by [deleted] »

ergonaught wrote: post #33

> But with just over 20 hours of practice, I progressed through all nine jhanic states. This is simply not true. It would be silly to deny that the author had some particular experience(s), but author absolutely did not have the described (quoted) experience. This "words have whatever meaning I decide they have" world goes absolutely nowhere productive or useful. I'd love it if you all would stop doing it.

[deleted]

Re: How to do the jhanas

#57

Post by titanomachy »

Ecoste wrote: post #34
wayoverthecloud wrote: post #22

Oh spirituality. The only thing that I spent years of life trying to understand and ended up realizing that there's nothing to understand. It sounds corny and cliche but there's no other way I can put it. I have/had meditated for almost 5 years of my life for almost 2 hours a day(unless I am traveling/or sick etc), so I think I am experienced enough to help beginner meditators. Also being from a Sanskrit-derived-lang…

I've tried to start meditating a couple of times in my life but every time after a couple of days instead of being introduced to gradual calm/bliss/joy/whatever I get met with an existential dread, sadness, anxiety, melancholy etc. I guess am naturally predisposed to those as well, much more than 'happy' feelings. I had to then take a week or even more to recover. I feel like you need to have your shit together so to…

To share my own experience, I first tried meditating seriously in the context of a 9-day retreat and the first 4-5 days were as you described. Anxiety, melancholy, boredom, frustration, then a period of emotional catharsis and much more enjoyable meditation after that. I think it really depends on how much shit you're repressing.

Re: How to do the jhanas

#58

Post by titanomachy »

wayoverthecloud wrote: post #22

Oh spirituality. The only thing that I spent years of life trying to understand and ended up realizing that there's nothing to understand. It sounds corny and cliche but there's no other way I can put it. I have/had meditated for almost 5 years of my life for almost 2 hours a day(unless I am traveling/or sick etc), so I think I am experienced enough to help beginner meditators. Also being from a Sanskrit-derived-lang…

> I am almost 45% sure we will see a AI for Jhanas in the next 50 years.

The Atlantic article on this Jhourney company says "according to its founders... the combination of artificial intelligence and EEG recordings of the brain will give novice meditators bliss on demand."

So we're already there! Unless you meant an AI that actually works, in which case I have no idea.

https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2024/03/jhana...

Re: How to do the jhanas

#59

Post by thelittleone »

derrida wrote: post #4

It is not even access concentration the Jhana 1 description. It is "just" the natural joy that arises from doing wholesome states like ethical behavior or generosity or unconditional love. (Which is good! Really good! just lets not appropriate the term 'jhana') It is great people are discovering that there is a happiness within that is not dependent on getting things or things being a certain way and you can increase…

Isn't the goal 'may I be happy' at odds with the underlying philosophy as it ignores the reality that without sadness, we cannot understand being happy. Wouldn't 'may i be at peace' or 'may i be present' be more suitable? And even futher 'may I' is a wishing of a future state which is a attachment to a certain state and which also means we are not at peace nor present. If we constantly wish this, are we not missing the point?

Re: How to do the jhanas

#60

Post by _nalply »

Please take care. There's the "dark night of the soul". Everybody is different. I and my wife experienced something similar to this phenomenon but my wife decades (!) earlier than me and she was completely alone. She had meditation therapy because of her cerebral palsy and when she fell into the night dark nobody understood her. I learnt a lot from her experience. Today I explain it like this: If you realize that everything is empty you lose ground. I and my wife are not experienced meditators and both stumbled upon it by accident separately and not at the same time.

What hit both of us hard is: if even being good and doing good things is empty then what's the point? Your dark night of the soul is probably different, so it does not make sense to tell too much about our experience.

The only thing I want to tell you: If you are going to meditate, you'll probably need help at some time. If someone supports, understands and loves you, this could be perhaps enough. If you see someone meditating needing help, try to help.

This said, it is better if you have an experienced person helping you, but if not, a good, understanding friend is better than nobody. Don't be afraid and start meditating anyway. Just keep in mind that not many people talk about the dark night of the soul and so most meditators in the West are completely blindsided.

If this happens to you, take rest and look for an helpful friend.

EDIT: added the last sentence.

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