Live data from Hacker News

There's more to mathematics than rigour and proofs (2007)

terrytao.wordpress.com

51–60 of 104 posts

Re: There's more to mathematics than rigour and proofs (2007)

#51
post #34

“Before I learned the art, a punch was just a punch, and a kick, just a kick. After I learned the art, a punch was no longer a punch, a kick, no longer a kick. Now that I understand the art, a punch is just a punch and a kick is just a kick.” - Bruce Lee

For the interested, the original Dōgen zen koan goes something like this — Before I began to practice, mountains were mountains and rivers were rivers. After I began to practice, mountains were no longer mountains and rivers were no longer rivers. Now, I have practiced for some time, and mountains are again mountains, and rivers are again rivers.

And Dōgen is quoting a Zen (Chan) Buddhist Qingyuan Weixin [Seigen Ishin].

Re: There's more to mathematics than rigour and proofs (2007)

#52
post #28

“Before I learned the art, a punch was just a punch, and a kick, just a kick. After I learned the art, a punch was no longer a punch, a kick, no longer a kick. Now that I understand the art, a punch is just a punch and a kick is just a kick.” - Bruce Lee

People have pointed out similarities to a few things in this thread now. It's pretty much the bell curve meme: https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/iq-bell-curve-midwit

This is the best meme ever / So accurate in many ways

Re: There's more to mathematics than rigour and proofs (2007)

#53

> The point of rigour is not to destroy all intuition; instead, it should be used to destroy bad intuition while clarifying and elevating good intuition. This is a key insight; it's something I've struggled to communicate in a software engineering setting, or in entrepreneurial settings. It's easy to get stuck in the "data driven" mindset, as if data was the be-all and end-all, and not just a stepping stone towards a…

rigour is is not about destroying bad intuition, but rather formalizing good intuition, imho. The ability to know good from bad is somewhere in-between total newb and expert.

Re: There's more to mathematics than rigour and proofs (2007)

#54

Good article, but should mention that it's not new. First copy in the Wayback Machine is from 2018, but there are comments all the way back to 2009. https://web.archive.org/web/20180301000000*/https://terrytao...

his old articles are shared a lot on here

Re: There's more to mathematics than rigour and proofs (2007)

#57
post #28

“Before I learned the art, a punch was just a punch, and a kick, just a kick. After I learned the art, a punch was no longer a punch, a kick, no longer a kick. Now that I understand the art, a punch is just a punch and a kick is just a kick.” - Bruce Lee

People have pointed out similarities to a few things in this thread now. It's pretty much the bell curve meme: https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/iq-bell-curve-midwit

The bell curve meme is a static taxonomy of people, and if the link you posted is correct, its origins were explicitly political. The version described by Bruce Lee, and anybody who has achieved a high level of skill, is about the process of learning and mastery.

In the bell curve version, the wisdom of grug brain and the wisdom of the monk are presented as equal, and the struggle of the midwit is framed as a pretentious, unnecessary aberration. The lesson it teaches is, don't seek out knowledge and new ideas. Education confuses the "midwit" people who are smart enough to partially grasp it but not smart enough to see through it like the monk.

In contrast, the "a punch is just a punch" version frames the conceptual struggle as a necessary phase in a process that leads to mastery. The beginner cannot engage directly with the simplicity of the master, so the beginner must engage through concepts and through practice. The more they do so, the more simple things begin to feel.

Since this started with a Bruce Lee quote, we can use him to see that it is not just a linear process that passes through conceptual education and ends in mastery. That leads to a dead end, because mastery can only be complete in a limited context. Bruce Lee kept searching outside his zone of mastery to find ways to get better. He studied techniques from other martial arts and fighting sports, even though in doing so he had to engage at a conceptual level since he had not mastered those arts.

For example, his art included trips and throws, and he was a master of his art. Yet when he got the chance later, he practiced judo with expert judoka. To do so, he had to back off from "a trip is just a trip, a throw is just a throw" and learn the techniques of judo. I don't think anybody has ever suggested he was a master at judo, which suggests he had to be engaging with it on a conceptual level. Yet he believed that his practice with judo improved the skills he had already achieved mastery at.

Not only did Bruce Lee preach constant assimilation of new ideas, he also preached simplification by discarding what is not useful. If a punch is just a punch, what do you discard? The whole punch? In order to find something to discard, you must look past the apparent simplicity of the internalized skill and dissect it conceptually.

In this view of things, conceptual thinking is not just a phase you go through on the way to mastery, but rather a complementary way of engaging with a skill. It is a tool for refining and elevating your intuitive mastery. Simplification and desimplification are the tick-tock of learning. A "mastered" skill is not like a video game sword that, once forged, always has the exact same stats, but is more like a Formula 1 car that is continually disassembled, analyzed, and rebuilt.

The bell curve meme does occasionally get used to express a linear ignorance-struggle-mastery story of learning, but its origin and most common use is to caricature the pursuit of knowledge as pretentious foolishness.

Re: There's more to mathematics than rigour and proofs (2007)

#58
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People have pointed out similarities to a few things in this thread now. It's pretty much the bell curve meme: https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/iq-bell-curve-midwit

man, sometimes things are obvious and right in front of us. I've known the Dogen saying for years. Have even meditated on it. I've been enjoying Bell Curve meme for sometime. Very funny. Never put together that these were the same thing. Today I am awakened.

At first, the Dogen saying and the bell curve meme seem like different things, then..

Re: There's more to mathematics than rigour and proofs (2007)

#59
Related:

There’s more to mathematics than rigour and proofs (2007) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31086970 - April 2022 (90 comments)

There’s more to mathematics than rigour and proofs - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13092913 - Dec 2016 (2 comments)

There’s more to mathematics than rigour and proofs - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9517619 - May 2015 (32 comments)

There’s more to mathematics than rigour and proofs - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4769216 - Nov 2012 (36 comments)

Re: There's more to mathematics than rigour and proofs (2007)

#60
This argument is very close to one by Whitehead in an essay called "The Rhythm of Education". The stages back there are called Romance, Precision, and Generalisation - but I'd argue there is an isomorphism (in a suitable category) between that and Tao's three stages.
Post reply on HN