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The March of Dimes Syndrome

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Re: The March of Dimes Syndrome

#51

Post by cogman10 »

Georgelemental wrote: post #38
TulliusCicero wrote: post #15

> I later learned that a term exists for this phenomenon—the March of Dimes syndrome—and that the tendency affects many other movements, too. Why, last year, did the Human Rights Campaign declare a “national state of emergency” for LGBT people? Why was the election of the first black American president followed by the Black Lives Matter movement? Why have reports of “hate groups” risen during the same decades that ra…

Your theory doesn't explain this part, though (emphasis mine): > It is no longer enough for conservative Christians to tolerate same-sex marriage—now they must be legally required to bake cakes and design web pages for the weddings. It is no longer enough to protect gay students from harassment—now these students must have access in elementary school libraries to how-to manuals for anal sex. Public schools must encou…

The explanation is simple, conservative outrage over non-issues.

To the first example, it's the same as whining about restaurants being forced to serve black patrons. If you are business open to the public you should serve the public. The slippery slope is beyond obvious. Can a doctor refuse to treat gay patients? A lawyer refuse to represent gay clients? A professor refuse to teach gay students? Regardless, conservatives won this one. Business owners can discriminate based on sexuality. Hurray? Yet why is this activist bringing up a case they already won?

The next examples of "how-to" manuals in elementary schools simply isn't something that exists. Further, it's frankly cover for the real agenda, pulling out any book making even the most glancing reference to homosexuality (billy has 2 dads) or past racism (MLK existed). It's a lot of hot air and fire over books not shelved in elementary schools. Perhaps in highschool or junior high, which is age groups where more explicit texts are acceptable.

> and have led to a decline in public support for the gay rights movement.

Completely the author, a conservative that likely does not support gay rights, opinion.

> the controversies keep activists in business.

I actually agree with the author here. Yes, the controversies keep the activists in business, but WHO are the activists? The answer isn't who the author identifies.

Consider how many rightwing outlets repeated the lie "Now schools are letting kids identify as cats and poop in litter-boxes!". Which activist do you suppose started that?

Re: The March of Dimes Syndrome

#52

Post by JohnBooty »

I have very mixed feelings about #MeToo, but this seems inaccurate or perhaps even disingenuous.

    Why, during a long and steep decline in the 
    incidence of sexual violence in America, did 
    academics, federal officials, and the #MeToo 
    movement discover a new “epidemic of sexual 
    assault”?
A lot of topics discussed around #MeToo involved sexual conduct that was not previously considered to be sexual assault.

A prime example would be the misconduct allegations against Harvey Weinstein. For much of human history his sexual quid pro quo would have been viewed somewhere between "acceptable" and "sleazy, but not in the same category as forcible sexual assault."

#MeToo brought in a growing awareness around that sort of harmful misconduct. Critics could correctly point out that this represented a moving of the goalposts, a widening of the definition of assault. In my opinion (and in many peoples' opinions) this was a positive change. But it was, inarguably, a change.

Zooming out, though, let's look at the author's main point:

    For career activists, success is a threat. 
    They can never declare mission accomplished.
This is the most blatant sort of mental gymnastics.

Two of the many flaws:

One:

Which of the mentioned groups can possibly reasonably claim "victory!?" The groups mentioned in the article have achieved significant gains but not victory.

I do not speak for women, African-Americans, or the LGBT+ community. But it's not a stretch to say that "victory" for these groups would mean fully equal rights and opportunities relative to others. If you think those groups have achieved that, I would urge you to learn more about their experiences.

Two:

The fight to retain those gains can never end. Because the opposition never stops fighting. Women were pretty sure they'd achieved some kind of reproductive rights in America, and then Roe vs. Wade was overturned. The fight can never end because the opposition never stops fighting.

Re: The March of Dimes Syndrome

#53

Post by zzo38computer »

zzzeek wrote: post #31

> It is no longer enough for conservative Christians to tolerate same-sex marriage—now they must be legally required to bake cakes and design web pages for the weddings. Isnt it enough that we can no longer lynch gay people with impunity? now they want to be treated as though they are "normal"? > But however much the backlash has hurt the original cause, the controversies keep activists in business. People getting ma…

> People getting married want to be able to buy wedding cakes! This is a serious controversy!

Of course, and they should buy (or make their own) wedding cakes, if they intend to have wedding cakes.

My opinion is:

If the cake is not a custom order, but just one of their ordinary products, then they should not be allowed to refuse due to such things as homosexual, etc.

However, for custom orders, such custom orders could be anything and they should have the right to refuse any such custom orders if they wish (due to the order itself, not due to the discrimination of the customers) (although this will reduce their profit, and may result in a bad reputation, so there is still a risk to refuse them).

However, if they are the only bakery in the area, then it is more difficult, since they might not have much of a choice (unless they can learn to decorate it themself). (Although this is also true for any number of other things that nobody has available for sale, etc.)

About the specific case, I have received conflicting information about this. Wikipedia says it is a custom order.

As the other comment says: They did not refuse to serve clients of a particular sexual orientation. If they did so, that would be discrimination and illegal, as it should be. But a custom order is something different, as I had explained above (this doesn't necessarily mean it would be a good idea, even if it is allowed, though).

Freedom of speech and freedom of religion and freedom of opinion is important.

Re: The March of Dimes Syndrome

#54

Post by defrost »

lovidico wrote: post #29

The author of this article evidently is ignorant to the current state of the world. Simply having the existence of a group become no longer illegal doesn't mean that rights are guaranteed at all. Groups advocating for women's and LGBTQI rights have continued to exist despite advances because groups working to undo everything they have achieved also continue to exist. There is obvious evidence of this - women's and LG…

This is one of a large number of carefully crafted policy pieces disguised as a wide range of things all brought to the US public eye by The Manhattan Institute for Policy Research.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manhattan_Institute_for_Policy...

Re: The March of Dimes Syndrome

#56

Post by defrost »

aprilthird2021 wrote: post #36
righthand wrote: post #33

This is propaganda belittling social causes and ignoring societal decline. Not everything gets better always. Why is this on HN?

It can be a flawed analysis without being propaganda and ignoring societal decline (as the definition of decline and progress itself is debatable). I do think the fact that humans build up careers and aren't just going to roll over and stop working or switch careers when it would be prudent for society is a good thing to note. Just as career activists move from one cause to another, so too do programmers

Articles can be, sure.

This specific article is a propaganda piece, commissioned, paid for, and disseminated by The Manhattan Institute for Policy Research.

I won't argue with their right to spread their message, policies, and to engage in marketing exercises, but this is very much their work. As a matter of cold fact, not opinion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manhattan_Institute_for_Policy...

Re: The March of Dimes Syndrome

#57

Post by cypherpunks01 »

JohnBooty wrote: post #52

I have very mixed feelings about #MeToo, but this seems inaccurate or perhaps even disingenuous. Why, during a long and steep decline in the incidence of sexual violence in America, did academics, federal officials, and the #MeToo movement discover a new “epidemic of sexual assault”? A lot of topics discussed around #MeToo involved sexual conduct that was not previously considered to be sexual assault. A prime exampl…

Harvey Weinstein is convicted serial rapist, so likely not the best exemplar of the borderline behavior you're trying to describe.

Re: The March of Dimes Syndrome

#59

Post by Georgelemental »

cogman10 wrote: post #51
Georgelemental wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your theory doesn't explain this part, though (emphasis mine): > It is no longer enough for conservative Christians to tolerate same-sex marriage—now they must be legally required to bake cakes and design web pages for the weddings. It is no longer enough to protect gay students from harassment—now these students must have access in elementary school libraries to how-to manuals for anal sex. Public schools must encou…

The explanation is simple, conservative outrage over non-issues. To the first example, it's the same as whining about restaurants being forced to serve black patrons. If you are business open to the public you should serve the public. The slippery slope is beyond obvious. Can a doctor refuse to treat gay patients? A lawyer refuse to represent gay clients? A professor refuse to teach gay students? Regardless, conserva…

> If you are business open to the public you should serve the public. The slippery slope is beyond obvious. Can a doctor refuse to treat gay patients? A lawyer refuse to represent gay clients? A professor refuse to teach gay students?

If many businesses were doing that, that would be pretty bad, yeah. But the activist demands go far beyond that. Masterpiece Cakeshop and 303 Creative LLC weren't sued for refusing to serve gay clients—they were perfectly willing to serve gay clients! What they were sued for was refusing to provide services that would express support for a specific event—a gay wedding. It's like the difference between refusing to sell cakes to white people, and refusing to bake a cake for a white nationalist event.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masterpiece_Cakeshop_v._Colora...

> simply isn't something that exists.

Quick internet search:

https://www.latimes.com/socal/daily-pilot/news/story/2022-06...

Excerpts from the book in question: https://thedaughter.substack.com/p/34th-filthybooks-example-...

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