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Proton is taking its privacy-first apps to a nonprofit foundation model

arstechnica.com

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Re: Proton is taking its privacy-first apps to a nonprofit foundation model

#51

Post by CorrectHorseBat »

nextos wrote: post #36
erk__ wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The biggest (by quite a margin still) is the Novo Nordisk foundation, but it is not really a new one. And its setup is rather different compared to OpenAI. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novo_Nordisk_Foundation

What about IKEA? It's smaller than Novo Nordisk, but they also use a non-profit parent company, which is admittedly a bit bizarre. My experience interacting with Novo Nordisk is that, in their case, this model has led to massive inefficiencies. The non-profit aspect has led to lots of internal politics and rigged hires. They are much more inefficient than a classical pharma.

Is IKEA smaller than Novo Nordisk?

Re: Proton is taking its privacy-first apps to a nonprofit foundation model

#52

Post by jiveturkey »

neilv wrote: post #46
jiveturkey wrote: post #2

Well this is only as strong as the makeup of the board! OpenAI has the same model. > Among other members of the Foundation's board is Sir Tim Berners-Lee, inventor of HTML, HTTP, and almost everything else about the web. Well that's good news!

Yes. Though I'm having trouble imagining Tim Berners-Lee as an enforcer, able to keep a for-profit side in line, in a post-Altman boardroom. (Whether it's slamming a rogue exec up against a pillar in a parking garage whilst cursing corrective instructions, or deploying his vast power to destroy his enemies from a distance, or whatever skills and resolve are required.)

I can't wait to see the movie!

Re: Proton is taking its privacy-first apps to a nonprofit foundation model

#53

Post by aniviacat »

tredre3 wrote: post #49
devwastaken wrote: post #3

Reminder that Proton is not "private". They have all the keys, and willingly operate in a jurisdiction where they bend over backwards for ridiculous court orders. From their own transparency page: Number of legal orders: 6,378 Contested orders: 407 Orders complied with: 5,971 They did this to expose protestors and people who upset the powers that be, rarely real criminals. They could choose to operate in a country th…

I agree with you that Proton is security theatre. Even if they were truly benevolent, they ultimately control both the server and the client. It would be trivial to serve a special js to a specific user to capture their key. Nobody would ever know. But that part: > HN has been overwhelmed with poor quality users and bots growing in the last few years. Same as reddit there are paid services used to manipulate voting.…

You can choose to only use the open source apps. Using the website is optional.

Re: Proton is taking its privacy-first apps to a nonprofit foundation model

#54

Post by nextos »

CorrectHorseBat wrote: post #51
nextos wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about IKEA? It's smaller than Novo Nordisk, but they also use a non-profit parent company, which is admittedly a bit bizarre. My experience interacting with Novo Nordisk is that, in their case, this model has led to massive inefficiencies. The non-profit aspect has led to lots of internal politics and rigged hires. They are much more inefficient than a classical pharma.

Is IKEA smaller than Novo Nordisk?

In practice, maybe not, but Novo Nordisk's current market cap is much bigger. In terms of revenue, I think they are on the same order of magnitude?

Novo Nordisk might return to a more realistic market cap once other GLP-1 agonists enter the market, e.g. Lilly's.

Re: Proton is taking its privacy-first apps to a nonprofit foundation model

#55

Post by suprjami »

thenoblesunfish wrote: post #48
neilv wrote: post #43

Hopefully this works better for Proton than it has for OpenAI or Mozilla, from a non-profit mission perspective.

Can you be more specific about how Mozilla has gone astray?

After Eich was ousted and formed Brave, Mozilla's C-suite are led by an ex-Kinsey person and are extracting all the wealth from the company in the form of massive executive bonuses.

They are now an "AI company" and Firefox isn't a concern anymore.

I expect Mozilla to die within the next few years and the web to become Chromium only, finally solving my chronic online-ness.

Re: Proton is taking its privacy-first apps to a nonprofit foundation model

#56

Post by nextos »

scns wrote: post #40
nextos wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about IKEA? It's smaller than Novo Nordisk, but they also use a non-profit parent company, which is admittedly a bit bizarre. My experience interacting with Novo Nordisk is that, in their case, this model has led to massive inefficiencies. The non-profit aspect has led to lots of internal politics and rigged hires. They are much more inefficient than a classical pharma.

> What about IKEA? It's smaller than Novo Nordisk, but they also use a non-profit parent company, which is admittedly a bit bizarre. Smells like tax evasion, but what do i know. Isn't IKEAs founder one of the richest people in Swiss?

Yes, indeed. IKEA's non-profit parent is headquartered in NL, and it is obviously a tax evasion scheme.

Re: Proton is taking its privacy-first apps to a nonprofit foundation model

#57

Post by ImJamal »

roomey wrote: post #37
ImJamal wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do the emails get decrypted then? I imagine your password would decrypt the keys which would allow them to decrypt the emails? It seems like the next time you log in they would be able to capture your password and decrypt your emails.

There is an FAQ. They sat the emails get decrypted in your browser, or in the "bridge" which runs locally. Your decrypted key isn't sent off your local computer. So it's not a case of waiting for you to log in and swipe your key. They never get the key. In the past you could have a separate login password and decryption password. You still can in the advanced settings if you want.

The key has to be on their servers though? If I log into a proton account on a new computer I could see all my emails decrypted. I don't have to store the key somewhere and move it to my new computer.

Second, I am not talking about swiping the key, but the password. When you log in, you send your password to their server. They presumably hash the password and compare the hashes then send you the decryption key if the hash is correct.

The problem with that is they could keep the password you entered (pre hash). If hashes are good then use the password you entered themselves with the key to decrypt your email.

It sounds like the separate decryption password may work around this, but is not the default meaning a large chunk of the users are vulnerable to proton logging passwords.

Re: Proton is taking its privacy-first apps to a nonprofit foundation model

#58

Post by neilv »

jiveturkey wrote: post #52
neilv wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. Though I'm having trouble imagining Tim Berners-Lee as an enforcer, able to keep a for-profit side in line, in a post-Altman boardroom. (Whether it's slamming a rogue exec up against a pillar in a parking garage whilst cursing corrective instructions, or deploying his vast power to destroy his enemies from a distance, or whatever skills and resolve are required.)

I can't wait to see the movie!

    DON LAFONTAINE:  In a world...
                     Where the Internet was betrayed...
                     One man...
                     Is called to serve again.
                     And he's dispensing his own brand of standard.

Re: Proton is taking its privacy-first apps to a nonprofit foundation model

#59

Post by drio0 »

WhackyIdeas wrote: post #15
devwastaken wrote: post #3

Reminder that Proton is not "private". They have all the keys, and willingly operate in a jurisdiction where they bend over backwards for ridiculous court orders. From their own transparency page: Number of legal orders: 6,378 Contested orders: 407 Orders complied with: 5,971 They did this to expose protestors and people who upset the powers that be, rarely real criminals. They could choose to operate in a country th…

I have been with Protonmail since 2014. And I feel that they are essentially now the same as any other company which makes loads of dollar - they give up their values. Don’t get me wrong, I have multiple ‘Visionary Accounts’ but I have just no expectation of them protecting my data completely. How do they get peoples passwords / keys? Easy. They just wait for you to log in and they swipe it then. It’s targeted. They…

Are you aware of a better alternative? I am trying to see if I should commit to using Proton or not. I am just a normal users who do not want to be tracked or my data used. Maybe Proton is still very decent for that

Re: Proton is taking its privacy-first apps to a nonprofit foundation model

#60

Post by brnt »

Vaslo wrote: post #4

While still working on lots of stuff in their portfolio, I’ve been extremely pleased with their entire portfolio. They just continue to improve and have become a viable competitor to Google in all but the photos area, and they are working on that.

I wish they'd have something more sensible for people that need a few inboxen at a domain. Having to pay full price for every new family member added to a family domain for instance is a bit too expensive for my tastes.
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