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Boeing Starliner Stuck on Space Station as More Leaks Discovered

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Re: Boeing Starliner Stuck on Space Station as More Leaks Discovered

#51

Post by spacecadet »

Analemma_ wrote: post #46
gdestus wrote: post #2

I'm fascinated about starliner strictly from a project management perspective. This is such a comprehensive failure from top to bottom between the delays, test failures, and hand waved requirements yet there still seems to be a contingent of boosters from both leadership and the customer. Usually I'm the guy who gets called in to rescue a spiraling project and if I was in aerospace, I dont even know where I would beg…

Boeing is too-big-to-fail in both civilian air travel and military procurement. They know they don’t have to give a shit, because the Federal government will always give them a slap on the wrist and another chance. They’ve literally forgotten how to compete deliver a working product on schedule, because for generations nobody has required them to do so.

It would be nice if the government did what they did with GM... Hostile take over, clean house, restart and eventually release.

Maybe people have a negative impression of the GM take over, but it was the best option and "worked".

Re: Boeing Starliner Stuck on Space Station as More Leaks Discovered

#52

Post by redeeman »

HeatrayEnjoyer wrote: post #26
redeeman wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You should have faith in the regulatory process that constrains that company. "Hello, im from the government and im here to help"

We need more government regulation of giant corps.

i dont think we have any examples of that working out. In a utopian world it would, but then again, in such a world, is it needed?

I think we need some much much stronger basic laws, like anti lying, anti fraud etc (but where crimes does NOT pay), and then POSSIBLY(not sure, havent thought that much about it) some form of mechanism to force companies to answer questions about their products/services/conduct

Re: Boeing Starliner Stuck on Space Station as More Leaks Discovered

#53

Post by Tuna-Fish »

jiggawatts wrote: post #12
14u2c wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that this was a fixed price contract. If they don't get it right the pork train does come to an end.

There will always be more fixed price contracts in the future. Every time the barrel emptied in the past, a new barrel full to the brim with pork was delivered.

This would make sense if the money was paid upfront.

It wasn't. As of right now, Boeing is massively in the hole on the project. The only way they get paid if they successfully complete the development program and then fly the 6 operational flights.

Re: Boeing Starliner Stuck on Space Station as More Leaks Discovered

#54

Post by Teever »

redeeman wrote: post #52
HeatrayEnjoyer wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We need more government regulation of giant corps.

i dont think we have any examples of that working out. In a utopian world it would, but then again, in such a world, is it needed? I think we need some much much stronger basic laws, like anti lying, anti fraud etc (but where crimes does NOT pay), and then POSSIBLY(not sure, havent thought that much about it) some form of mechanism to force companies to answer questions about their products/services/conduct

So in your mind what was making Boeing not suck in the time before it sucked?

Like there was a time when Boeing was pretty great, and now it's pretty shit.

What happened? Could the loosening of oversight from the government have played a part in it?

Re: Boeing Starliner Stuck on Space Station as More Leaks Discovered

#55

Post by bavell »

exsomet wrote: post #44
delichon wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fragility of this planet is a very large reason to learn to survive outside of our nest. The more fragile the more important.

Not disagreeing with your point, and admittedly being a little bit pedantic, but I always laugh when people talk about the planet being in danger. The earth is going to be fine. It’s humans who are in danger.

> The earth is going to be fine. It’s humans who are in danger.

Love this bit: https://youtu.be/7W33HRc1A6c?si=QQgZQ7WKAUDXsfMe

Re: Boeing Starliner Stuck on Space Station as More Leaks Discovered

#56

Post by hydrogen7800 »

cuSetanta wrote: post #38
tim333 wrote: post #36

I'm puzzled why they have helium leaks all over? I mean gas valves aren't really a new technology.

A certain leak rate is expected. Helium is a very small atom, and as such is used for leak testing of systems all the time. It is very good at finding gaps in a system. Obviously the leaks here are a lot more serious. My experience of significant leaks in spacecraft propulsion would lead me to believe that there are welding issues. It can be very difficult to weld some of the materials used in these system, adding to…

> It can be very difficult to weld some of the materials used in these systems.

Yes, lots of dissimilar metals welded together, using TIG, inertial/friction, electron beam, and probably other welding techniques.

>Cracks in welds can be hard to find, although I would expect every weld in a system like this to be X-ray inspected, and maybe also penetrant tested.

Indeed they are, and not just the welds. Any fracture critical component should have 100% nondestructive testing performed. This includes radiographic, liquid penetrant, helium leak test, etc., often all of the above. Like you, I would also be surprised if there were a single component or subsystem that was not subjected to these tests

Re: Boeing Starliner Stuck on Space Station as More Leaks Discovered

#57

Post by redeeman »

Teever wrote: post #54
redeeman wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i dont think we have any examples of that working out. In a utopian world it would, but then again, in such a world, is it needed? I think we need some much much stronger basic laws, like anti lying, anti fraud etc (but where crimes does NOT pay), and then POSSIBLY(not sure, havent thought that much about it) some form of mechanism to force companies to answer questions about their products/services/conduct

So in your mind what was making Boeing not suck in the time before it sucked? Like there was a time when Boeing was pretty great, and now it's pretty shit. What happened? Could the loosening of oversight from the government have played a part in it?

they have been doing fraud. but why wont you allow it to be done in a more proper way? its like when EU creates a law that specifies how fast you are allowed to vacuum clean your house. it is retarded. They put a cap on the power a vacuum cleaner can draw, in their infinite stupidity. How about instead, if you absolutely must, mandate efficiency? Their rationale is "if they make it efficient, then they dont need the power draw", so how about mandate the efficiency? but no, they dont.

Also, government oversight and involvement has ONLY gone up, and with it, corruption aswell. The more government you have, the more it will be corrupted. It is a natural law that you cannot deviate from. What we need is a very very small but razer sharp and enforced set of rules. If a company knowingly frauds, they must be punished so severely that it will make ALL board members crap their pants at the thought of even an accusation of fraud even being made. EVERYONE that can be proved to have been involved would be punished so severely they never see daylight again, except 10 seconds before the firing squad (which starts by aiming at the feet, and then work their way up).

I consider a company lying to be fraud. Boeing should be publicly stating what their quality controls and engineering standards are, and when someone then is found to act improperly, the punishment should come down with a force currently unthinkable.

what I dont want, is a giant "im here to help" government (that we already have) that will without question be corrupted and uglier than tolkiens orcs

Re: Boeing Starliner Stuck on Space Station as More Leaks Discovered

#58

Post by yencabulator »

panick21_ wrote: post #35
jiggawatts wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There will always be more fixed price contracts in the future. Every time the barrel emptied in the past, a new barrel full to the brim with pork was delivered.

That bsd analysis. There isnt a magical contract fairy that creates infinite contracts for every company. Yes there are more fixed price contracts, but if you fuck up like Starliner you are less likely to get another one. And even if you could get it. Boeing peadership has clearly stated they are basically not really interested in that anymore. The have lost billions on fixed price contracts in space and military. Bo…

In a pre-SpaceX world, there pretty much was no one else they could lose the next contract to. I think a lot of Boeing still lives in a world where they have a good reputation to milk.

Re: Boeing Starliner Stuck on Space Station as More Leaks Discovered

#59

Post by cuSetanta »

cameldrv wrote: post #48
cuSetanta wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A certain leak rate is expected. Helium is a very small atom, and as such is used for leak testing of systems all the time. It is very good at finding gaps in a system. Obviously the leaks here are a lot more serious. My experience of significant leaks in spacecraft propulsion would lead me to believe that there are welding issues. It can be very difficult to weld some of the materials used in these system, adding to…

All of that granted, isn't this stuff tested on the ground? I guess vibration from the launch must have cracked the welds or something, but I'd have thought that if this were a concern that the parts would have been tested in a vibration chamber.

It will have been tested extensively on ground. They will have identified leaks that are unreported in the media and there are those that have been reported.

I have no idea what went so wrong in this instance though. I am looking forward to reading some sort of report if it ever becomes available. Will be keeping an eye on the NASA Lessons Learned Library (https://llis.nasa.gov/).

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