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Building an AI game studio: what we've learned so far

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Re: Building an AI game studio: what we've learned so far

#51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean by infinite variations here?

I'm guessing they mean with some type of procedural generation or another randomization approach in mind that creates a bunch of new maps, bosses, vehicles even! Advance Wars, if I recall correctly, has a hand-crafted set of maps and battles structured in a campaign story. So once you're done, you're done. Replay-ability is a bit limited. I absolutely loved Advance Wars and my brother and I played the heck out of it…

Advance Wars Returns [1] is allegedly good and on my list of things to play.

[1]: https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/6012

Re: Building an AI game studio: what we've learned so far

#52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean by infinite variations here?

I'm guessing they mean with some type of procedural generation or another randomization approach in mind that creates a bunch of new maps, bosses, vehicles even! Advance Wars, if I recall correctly, has a hand-crafted set of maps and battles structured in a campaign story. So once you're done, you're done. Replay-ability is a bit limited. I absolutely loved Advance Wars and my brother and I played the heck out of it…

Advance Wars has a map creator and the AI can play on it. In theory one could get an AI to generate maps given the rules of the map creator and then users can implement them. Per my memory, no way to share, so it'll be a bit harder to setup and you can't do things like give the enemy units whose location you don't know, but it achieves a near infinite replay value. With some more work and one could have a new AI interface with an emulator and play the game instead of using the built in AI, if one finds it is no longer challenging. Thought that is probably reaching the scale where remaking the game from scratch would give one more freedom and control (and ability to monetize).

Re: Building an AI game studio: what we've learned so far

#53

Hard facts: Steam has over 73k games - and is growing at over 10k games per year and increasing. The median game on Steam earns less than $800 - down from $4k in 2020. Making a game is not hard - marketing a game is.

I guess if you mean in the sense that writing a book is just writing words or publishing an app is not hard it makes some sense... But no. Shippable games are incredibly hard to make.

Why do you think publishers invest in new games instead of just hunt for diamonds in the rough?

Re: Building an AI game studio: what we've learned so far

#54
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The majority of those games are now visual novels / pornography.

which shows how bad puritan culture is, most people don't care about your puritanism in their room, they want to play a game, see a hot char, and be able to do stuff with them in the game. it's the harsh truth that people seem to get mad at. Especially now with ever increasing rates of ADHD and other stuff, having an old school genre like an RPG have that type of stuff as a "reward" for beating a level or whatever re…

Stardew Valley: too hot for puritans

Re: Building an AI game studio: what we've learned so far

#55
post #53

Hard facts: Steam has over 73k games - and is growing at over 10k games per year and increasing. The median game on Steam earns less than $800 - down from $4k in 2020. Making a game is not hard - marketing a game is.

I guess if you mean in the sense that writing a book is just writing words or publishing an app is not hard it makes some sense... But no. Shippable games are incredibly hard to make. Why do you think publishers invest in new games instead of just hunt for diamonds in the rough?

Probably the same effect that VCs invest in many startups, knowing only a tiny fraction will make a large profit?

Re: Building an AI game studio: what we've learned so far

#56

How will you ensure the content created for a game is free from copyright violations? Or is that up to the user to determine?

We haven't looked into exactly how this will be handled yet, but I believe this would fall under the same laws and restrictions as any other online platform (YouTube, TikTok etc.), it's just that the production tools are different.

That seems like a ridiculous stance. The safe harbor laws that those platforms depend on are for user-generated content. Here it's your platform that's generating the infringing content. (And obviously it's not by accident, you're practically reveling in it with your choice of demo.)

Re: Building an AI game studio: what we've learned so far

#57

we are in need of a good 2D strategy game such as Advance Wars or Fire Emblem that can be played with infinite variations

You might have played some (most?) of these games already, but I'd like to offer some suggestions in case you haven't.

- The Disgaea series is hilarious, infinitely replayable, and allows you to pull off some very satisfying game-breaking maneuvers. Disgaea 1, 4, and 5 are considered the best in the series. Disgaea 7, the newest release, has good reviews on Steam too. If you want to pick just one, get Disgaea 5.

- Tiny Metal is inspired by Advance Wars and improves on many aspects of the game.

- Wargroove is also inspired by Advance Wars. It's very good, but a single level can sometimes take a long time to beat (45 mins to an hour). Comes with a scenario editor so you can design your own levels (or download other people's creations).

- Into the Breach is one of my favorite games. The design is simple with very few rules, but it lends itself to emergent behavior that can be a lot of fun to discover.

- Deckbuilders give me the same kind of satisfaction as turn-based strategy games. The current genre darling is Balatro, and its popularity is well deserved. One of the best games to come out in recent years. I've been recommending it to everybody.

- And of course, the Fire Emblem series is still alive and well. The games are 3D now, but the gameplay is still the same as it always was (with slight variations between versions). Fire Emblem: Three Houses might be my most played game ever. That said, Fire Emblem has never been as challenging as Advance Wars in my experience, so you might not enjoy it as much unless you play on higher difficulty levels. I play these games for the story, so I usually play on easier modes.

- EDIT: oh, how could I forget Triangle Strategy and Unicorn Overlord? I haven't played these yet, but they're well reviewed and come with some very interesting mechanics.

Hope there's something new in that list for you to enjoy :)

Re: Building an AI game studio: what we've learned so far

#58
I think most people don't actually want to make games.

Most people want to take an existing basic game, and tweek it a bit, incrementally, adding new art, ideas and levels, and removing the stuff they don't like.

They definitely do not want to write code.

They most certainly do not want to debug generated code and I think you've hit the nail on the head with 'generating actual code sucks, is hard and basically doesn't work' with current models.

What I see in the demos looks different though; it looks like you have a configuration driven set of basic game elements and let the AI tweek the structured and easily-to-validate-schema config.

Which I think is fantastic.

"Make this unit bigger", "Add new type of fighter", "Get rid of this unit", "make the terrain here smoother and add a lake"; I feel like this kind of structured tool use is currently possible, if you write a framework of constrained actions (which is what it appears you've done).

So, props to you. This feels like something that is both actually novel and interesting.

...but; I feel there is going to be a difficult path ahead.

The more generic you make the engine, the more different types of games you can make with it; however, in doing so, the tools you have (eg. "modify unit config", "generate 2d sprite for unit", etc.) will have to become more generic; and the more generic they become, the less effective the agents will be at using them.

Our current batch of GPT4-ish models seems like they're relatively well suited for using specific tools with specifically constrained inputs to plan and achieve goals; however, as the tools become generic, the solution space balloons out widely and you start getting random crap instead of actual real solutions to tasks.

Specifically, I'm skeptical about your generic `createOrUpdateRule` and that you can effectively scale it to complex interactive behaviors; it just feels like the agents will never express complex ideas with that kind of coding; it'll only ever be an array of trivial behaviors.

Maybe that's all you need in some cases; but I don't think you can build actual games that way.

So, practically speaking, this might actually only ever really work as like a 'super modding tool' that takes basically a fully working game and lets you mod it in a very specific set of ways; but that would mean creating a 'template game' for various different game types, and different 'modify game' tools for each one. Otherwise, the final product is never going to really be beyond 'unit moves back and forth randomly'.

...but, that would still be really fantastic.

I guess, I hope you don't get lost trying too hard to build a generic Unity clone using AI that is kind of so-so (ie. generates random code that doesn't work and you have to constantly debug), instead of an amazing thing that is slightly less generic, but lets you do amazing things within a specific set of restrictions.

Re: Building an AI game studio: what we've learned so far

#59

Hi HN. We want to make it possible for anyone to build games without first learning to code or make art, by giving them access to an “AI game studio”. It’s early days, but here’s what we’ve learned so far building this product. Would love to hear what everyone thinks, and see if we can find some alpha testers for this!

It looks like a new kind of sandbox game and it certainly is a very promising concept. It might allow for entirely new types of collaborative storytelling. e.g. if a player marks an item as 'important' the next level generated builds on that thread.

Personally I would love to have a dedicated tool for generating mods for established games like Minecraft and let simple drawings be given life in game worlds.

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