Live data from Hacker News

The danger of the mediocre success when testing startup hypotheses (2023)

pivotal.substack.com

51–60 of 88 posts

Re: The danger of the mediocre success when testing startup hypotheses (2023)

#51

The thoughts in this article apply equally well to launching products inside a corporate as well. Sometimes a product team will "buy the business", eg offer credits or funding to a prospect in order to get their logo. This muddies up the entire experiment. Is the product worth X, or not? Does it solve a problem for customers that is worth X, or not? For b2b sales, selling 1 or 2 can also be exceptionally costly becau…

I've worked at a place addicted to giving away software / credits to land deals.

It was incredibly damaging and would now be a red flag for me when looking at future workplaces.

It was a viscous cycle where the sales team promised all kinds of customisations to land deals. The software team would be lumped with the responsibility of delivering many of these while not getting time to refine the core products.

The software despite being critical for ultimately delivering also was still seen as a "cost centre" because on paper the credits were given away for pennies to land the "juicy" consultancy with it.

If any deal was tight, the sales team would just give away more software credits / promise more software customisation to land it.

The result was the consultant side of the business acted like they were responsible for all the revenue despite the software delivering a huge bulk.

On paper the software didn't bring in much because we had a sales team effectively giving away our software.

I've written previously about the dangers of courting a tiny fish from a big pond which is related. The one-sided nature of the emerging relationship where to the small supplier the contract means everything, but to the mega-corp it's actually just "that thing that Bob from Sub-division 3 uses" and doesn't actually have mind-share, because very little software is actually ever rolled out "org-wide". Mega-corps rarely behave in such a synchronised manner and chances are you're not really selling to "MegaCorp", you're just selling to Bob. And when he moves on, there's a good chance that no-one else has even heard of you. If you're lucky your invoices will still get paid for a while after despite no-one now even using your system, if unlucky you'll have to fight twice as hard now to get paid for the outstanding invoices, despite the undercut price you decided to charge Bob because you thought you were getting your foot in the door at MegaCorp.

Re: The danger of the mediocre success when testing startup hypotheses (2023)

#52

I worked in a SaaS company selling an A/B Testing app where I saw a lot of tests and their outcomes from different clients. Of course there are the low hanging fruits, which scored the clear success. Most of the tests although were not a clear success, but just a slightly better conversion rate. Multiple tests applied after each other slowly increased the overall value. If taken the advice not to implement the change…

"Just slightly better", if you can have confidence that it's not a mirage, is a success and should be taken as such. I don't think that's inconsistent with the article, which is more about the danger of allowing a gap between success and failure which, if you land in it, leaves you with no clear direction to go in.

So long as only 10% or less of your incremental successes are mirages, and so long as the downside of shipping a mirage is only a small incremental harm, then shipping 9 success and 1 harm should still get you an overall ~78% win vs just shipping the 9 successes (assuming the bad result is an equivalently negative result to the good ones).

How much are you willing to spend to reduce the downside risk, and how many “good” experiments are you willing to throw away in the process?

Re: The danger of the mediocre success when testing startup hypotheses (2023)

#53

Clickbait, deceptive title. What the author means is ‘get real about continuous learning’ Of course it takes money to run experiments you can actually learn from, and the article is bereft of practical advice about doing this on the cheap. However, I clicked. But you don’t have to.

That's a pretty low bar to call something click bait. It's not click bait just because you disagree with the content. Edit: and I think the title matched the content fairly ok?

It is clickbait, by definition. The title baited with a promise of one type of content, the click yielded a different type of content.

Re: The danger of the mediocre success when testing startup hypotheses (2023)

#54

Clickbait, deceptive title. What the author means is ‘get real about continuous learning’ Of course it takes money to run experiments you can actually learn from, and the article is bereft of practical advice about doing this on the cheap. However, I clicked. But you don’t have to.

That's a pretty low bar to call something click bait. It's not click bait just because you disagree with the content. Edit: and I think the title matched the content fairly ok?

An article with a deceptive title and lacking substance is textbook clickbait.

Re: The danger of the mediocre success when testing startup hypotheses (2023)

#55
post #10

> So when a startup comes to me with an idea for an experiment, the one thing I tell them is: make sure that there’s a well-defined distinction between success and failure. Don't fall in the messy middle. Mediocrity is often enough to put food on the table. The world is full of companies aiming to survive for a few more quarters with their little mediocre product. And once a company embraces that idea there's usually…

Settling down with a mediocre product that sustains your company should probably count as success. The vast majority of startups fail, after all. You might have failed to produce a unicorn, but at least you've got a decent workhorse.

Re: The danger of the mediocre success when testing startup hypotheses (2023)

#56
post #22

Mediocre Success + VC Investment = failure worse than just failing to start a business. It means wasting many years of your life for a "small win" for a VC.

On the other hand, mediocre success with no VC investment is a solid recipe for a lifestyle business. It's a very important qualification!

Re: The danger of the mediocre success when testing startup hypotheses (2023)

#57
post #20

“Mediocre success”, as described by the author, is how great science starts out. You try an experiment, (eventually) get a slight indication that your hypothesis might be valid, and then keep iterating until it seems clear that the idea is real (or not). Startup companies generally shouldn’t do science, but that same interactive process should guide you. Because when you start you never know enough.

It is also about trying to get the most of that hypothesis testing, defining success and failure the best you can.

I have encountered this "mediocre success" many times in AI solutions due to lack of problem definition. For instance, now with LLMs is very easy to write a prompt that gives you the output you want in 5 or 6 examples you have in mind. The problem is to build up your testing scenario from there, and gather as much data as possible until you make it representative of your use cases.

That is the only way to actually test your prompts, RAG strategies, and so on, instead of buying the last CoT-like prompt trend.

Re: The danger of the mediocre success when testing startup hypotheses (2023)

#58
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a pretty low bar to call something click bait. It's not click bait just because you disagree with the content. Edit: and I think the title matched the content fairly ok?

An article with a deceptive title and lacking substance is textbook clickbait.

The title is "The Worst Outcome is a Mediocre Success" and that's what this is about. How is this deceptive? The "substance" part might be debatable. I personally don't think every post has to go in-depth on everything. I enjoyed his nugget of insight.

Re: The danger of the mediocre success when testing startup hypotheses (2023)

#59
Hmm, while the advice is mostly presented as relevant to startups, I kinda wonder if this is also an issue in other aspects of life and business too.

Like say, having a side project or hobby. If you try something and find you both don't enjoy it and fail miserably at it, that's probably a sign it's not the right thing to be doing. If you try and succeed beyond your wildest dreams, then you'd continue.

But if you're in the middle and become moderately successful, then what (as the article says)? Do you see that as a sign you've made the right decision and should continue? Or a sign that you'd be better of trying something else?

It's all too easy to take it as a sign that "things will work out if I keep going down this path" and plow weeks/months/years into something that may not pay off in the end, or be best suited to your talents and interests.

Re: The danger of the mediocre success when testing startup hypotheses (2023)

#60

As an entrepreneur, my observation is that the vast majority of the experiments I run result in an outcome where the null hypothesis cannot be rejected. That is the case for most social science experiments (which is what marketing experiments really are.) But since I don't have to publish anything, I don't p-hack my results. If you think that scientific rigour will help you avoid the need for good judgement, you're i…

I agree and I don't think it is specific to the world of entrepreneurs and/or social science experiments. If your target variable depends on a large number of correlated variables you are very unlikely to formulate the correct hypothesis by accident. This is why you need intuition or good judgement in science, just as much as in every thing else.
Post reply on HN