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Ordered back to the office, top tech talent left instead, study finds

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Re: Ordered back to the office, top tech talent left instead, study finds

#51

Post by carom »

celdon25 wrote: post #46
carom wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have been a remote employee (starting years before the pandemic) at a number of companies. The biggest thing I've noticed is the importance of communication. More specifically, you need a chat-first workforce. Seeing some places that were awful at remote and some that were really good, it really comes down to how comfortable people were communicating via chat. If I were building a remote company I would hire people…

> but I would not build a business off of $180k engineers. I would rather pay double that (while being selective about talent) and get something (better) built with fewer people. Where are these 360k jobs posted? I never see anything close to that.

Major metro big tech, toward the senior side of things. Check out [1]. Salaries in the 200s are very realistic. 300s is senior or long tenure with stock appreciation. It is worth grinding leetcode for a few months.

1. https://levels.fyi/

Re: Ordered back to the office, top tech talent left instead, study finds

#52

Post by benterix »

noufalibrahim wrote: post #16

Since there are a lot of founders here, I'm curious about what your positions are whether you have any guides/references to creating a good environment. My own experience has been that with junior talent, they don't gel with the team and don't have anything in common with the rest of the employees outside of the project they're working on.

> don't have anything in common with the rest of the employees outside of the project they're working on.

I fail to grasp this part. How is this negative? I often have nothing in common with the rest of the guys in my team but it doesn't affect my work in any way.

Re: Ordered back to the office, top tech talent left instead, study finds

#53

Post by tucnak »

greenthrow wrote: post #21
tucnak wrote: post #17

Genuine "top talent" is the people that care about the company; they aren't leaving.

Yeah, no. The only people who care about the company are the execs who own enough stock to care and green newbies who haven't been burned yet by companies who do not care about them at all.

So cynical! I'm trembling.

Re: Ordered back to the office, top tech talent left instead, study finds

#54

Post by analognoise »

greenthrow wrote: post #21
tucnak wrote: post #17

Genuine "top talent" is the people that care about the company; they aren't leaving.

Yeah, no. The only people who care about the company are the execs who own enough stock to care and green newbies who haven't been burned yet by companies who do not care about them at all.

There used to be pensions - those people still cared deeply about the company after they left.

Nobody has pensions anymore, and as long as your 401k is in an index you don’t care if the building collapses after you walk out the door.

It’s been interesting to watch this dynamic in defense. There’s a lot of weird niche shit that’s absolutely critical and takes a really long time (and the right environment!) to become an expert in, but the turnover rate now is crazy. There’s an “old guard” (that has a pension) that kinda keep things running, but a LOT of them are retiring about now.

Re: Ordered back to the office, top tech talent left instead, study finds

#55

Post by bravetraveler »

Don't hesitate to look. There are offers out there. This was me until recently.

I was at my limit of nonsense unrelated to the job... then unclear RTO policies started appearing.

I put my foot out of the door and raised my concerns.

Management then, in a panic, told me it's being used as a wedge. Platitudes like "Enforcement isn't likely" or "not worth thinking about".

They were right... but not the way they intended. I chose new employment that doesn't play these games.

The market has decided I'm worth an extra $70k/year (with 200k in RSUs) and can work remotely. I now make more money, am officially remote, and have less stress.

By picking up a new job I've actually shed about seven. It's incredible how much burden one can carry.

This isn't even some fancy dev role, just SRE/keeping lights on.

I hope the good people I left behind (or those reading this) recognize the game.

It's the cheapest way to lay people off, get them to leave. The nefarious thing is it costs you, too.

Their attempts to retain were repulsing. I was assured that because of "who I am", I didn't need to worry. That validated the choice for me.

Re: Ordered back to the office, top tech talent left instead, study finds

#56

Post by zx8080 »

ProxCoques wrote: post #44
jaydeegee wrote: post #37

Spend 10+ hours and extra expenses commuting, you want to retain valuable staff you have to make that a good value proposition for them.

A lot of offices in London closed their gyms over the pandemic and never brought them back. I always thought that was pretty stupid. A lot of people who could WFH even before then used to come in for the free gym at least.

Why don't they buy gym pass themselves? Or is it too expensive in London?

Re: Ordered back to the office, top tech talent left instead, study finds

#57

Post by glimshe »

tucnak wrote: post #17

Genuine "top talent" is the people that care about the company; they aren't leaving.

Lifers tend to not take risks and be average, but not top performers. Good "workhorses" as they say, but rarely the people who brings in the most innovation.

Re: Ordered back to the office, top tech talent left instead, study finds

#58

Post by kdmytro »

zx8080 wrote: post #56
ProxCoques wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of offices in London closed their gyms over the pandemic and never brought them back. I always thought that was pretty stupid. A lot of people who could WFH even before then used to come in for the free gym at least.

Why don't they buy gym pass themselves? Or is it too expensive in London?

They do, but they buy a pass to a gym that is closer to home, which does not help building relationships within the company.

Re: Ordered back to the office, top tech talent left instead, study finds

#59

Post by npteljes »

I firmly believe that management doesn't, or shouldn't mind this. I think a successful company is not necessarily built on top talent, but rather on people whose behavior can be managed - and on managers that are similarly competent. Similar to how on a building site, extraordinary bricklayers are not necessary, only a specific kind of adequacy is.

The other thing is that people who have something extraordinary also ask for something extraordinary in return, and that's not surprising either, it's just power dynamics. Similar to how powerful celebrities can have ridiculous backstage requests - what are they going to do, cancel a show?

Re: Ordered back to the office, top tech talent left instead, study finds

#60

Post by karma_pharmer »

npteljes wrote: post #59

I firmly believe that management doesn't, or shouldn't mind this. I think a successful company is not necessarily built on top talent, but rather on people whose behavior can be managed - and on managers that are similarly competent. Similar to how on a building site, extraordinary bricklayers are not necessary, only a specific kind of adequacy is. The other thing is that people who have something extraordinary also…

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