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EU data shows PHEVs emit 350% more CO2 than tested values

europe.autonews.com

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Re: EU data shows PHEVs emit 350% more CO2 than tested values

#51

Post by cyberpunk »

throwaway63467 wrote: post #7

Hybrids were mostly a tax scam in my opinion. In Germany until recently you could get a 6,000-8,000 € subsidy on these cars and when leasing them through a company you got a really nice tax reduction from 1% of the list price to 0,25 %, which amounts to several thousand Euros per year as well. Not to forget the vehicle tax was drastically reduced as well. Overall mostly very affluent people bought these cars, and the…

This is the same Germany who recently “halved” their plastic waste numbers by attaching milk bottle caps to the actual bottles so they’re counted as a single piece of waste instead of two…

None of it is about the environment.

Re: EU data shows PHEVs emit 350% more CO2 than tested values

#52

Post by nottorp »

jfim wrote: post #29
KingOfCoders wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is this garage thing you mention? We don't have those in Germany!

Where do people typically park their cars in Germany? On the street, or in a driveway?

Wherever they can find a parking spot. Why do you think you get much of a choice in the urban jungle?

Re: EU data shows PHEVs emit 350% more CO2 than tested values

#53

Post by egeozcan »

yread wrote: post #25

...while still emitting ~40% less than non-hybrids. This is just a consequence of the crazy way WLTP was calculating emissions for PHEVs. It gets adjusted next year https://www.fleeteurope.com/en/new-energies/europe/features/...

But is it also calculating the depreciation of the battery, which has a totally different lifetime than the rest of the car and causes a lot of emissions? Or is it insignificant?

Re: EU data shows PHEVs emit 350% more CO2 than tested values

#54

Post by sofixa »

snowpid wrote: post #45
izacus wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get these kinds of arguments. Even if rural areas still use cars, reducing pollution in urban areas (the ones, you know, most populated) still brings massive improvements to everyone (if nothing else, the ruralites aren't stuck in traffic as much when they inevitably commute into cities) and has very measureable health benefits for everyone in the cities. Where does this silly idea that "let's use more public…

by talking to politician from Urban areas. (This is just my real life experience). I live in an urban area, also talk to people from car friendly places and they complain about lack of parking areas which is no surprise in a city (and stupid to build more) Politicians from Urban areas otherwise hate cars and want to forbid everywhere including rural areas. I just wonder why people cant understand that different place…

[dead]

Re: EU data shows PHEVs emit 350% more CO2 than tested values

#55

Post by Ndymium »

As a Finn, the most annoying aspect here is the unequal treatment by the government. A PHEV is treated very favourably tax wise, and the emissions calculations are very optimistic about the usage of electric power.

My car is a compressed natural gas car that I drive with 100 % biogas, which is domestic made from waste and other side products of industry, and has an estimated CO2 equivalent emission of ~0 g/km. The tax law and emissions calculations assume that I drive it on natural gas all of the time, never a single kilometer using biogas. Additionally I need to pay an extra fixed tax (not based on kilometers driven) just because it's a CNG car. This tax is 6 times higher than for PHEVs.

Thus, a big SUV like Mitsubishi Outlander, which eats a lot of petrol as soon as you get outside the short EV range and runs its engine anyway when it's cold in the winter, gets to pay less tax (which is specifically based on CO2 emissions) than my biogas car.

PHEVs in my eyes are nothing but greenwashing for most people.

Re: EU data shows PHEVs emit 350% more CO2 than tested values

#56

Post by sofixa »

cyberpunk wrote: post #51
throwaway63467 wrote: post #7

Hybrids were mostly a tax scam in my opinion. In Germany until recently you could get a 6,000-8,000 € subsidy on these cars and when leasing them through a company you got a really nice tax reduction from 1% of the list price to 0,25 %, which amounts to several thousand Euros per year as well. Not to forget the vehicle tax was drastically reduced as well. Overall mostly very affluent people bought these cars, and the…

This is the same Germany who recently “halved” their plastic waste numbers by attaching milk bottle caps to the actual bottles so they’re counted as a single piece of waste instead of two… None of it is about the environment.

> This is the same Germany who recently “halved” their plastic waste numbers by attaching milk bottle caps to the actual bottles so they’re counted as a single piece of waste instead of two…

Do you have any sources discussing this? Most waste numbers I've seen from France (where I live) and the EU are in volume or weight, neither of which will be affected by the caps remaining attached to bottles (which is an EU-wide thing IIRC).

Re: EU data shows PHEVs emit 350% more CO2 than tested values

#57

Post by ProllyInfamous »

subpixel wrote: post #26
tommiegannert wrote: post #15

This reminds me of the "eco" car that was my Volvo V70. You could fill it up with E85, which placed it in a lower tax bracket in Sweden. However, no one actually used E85, because Volvo engines had recently had issues with some engine gaskets being ruined by ethanol...

Every Subaru in the US has a sticker that says "Partial Zero Emission Vehicle". Yeah right. https://www.subaruonlineparts.com/sku/j121sfj700.html

EXCEPT for turbocharged Subarus (at least my Forester didn't qualify).

Re: EU data shows PHEVs emit 350% more CO2 than tested values

#58

Post by ed_balls »

p410n3 wrote: post #9

Personal anecdotes ahaead: I'm German. My grandpa was an electrical engineer. He is very enthusiastic about his PHEV and talks about it alot. He bought one because not only is he interested, but also PHEV sales got heavily subsidized (i think like 6000€ or smth) and so many people bought one in his area as well. Apparently, a surprising amount of old middle class German people bought PHEVs and literally never charge…

The subsidy is badly structured:

- installing the charging point - 2k credit

- charing at charging station - 2k credit

- your electricity bill - 2k credit

- servicing the car - the more you drive on electric power the greater the discount is, say up to 50% with 2k cap.

Re: EU data shows PHEVs emit 350% more CO2 than tested values

#59

Post by throwaway22032 »

Don't plug in hybrids typically have a 20-30 mile range on the battery?

Unless I have a dedicated garage for my car it just sounds like a huge faff. The cost savings for plugging it in vs. fuelling it are probably something like 50 pence, and the only time I'm ever going to do that would be dangling a cable from a window if I manage to park outside the house.

Re: EU data shows PHEVs emit 350% more CO2 than tested values

#60

Post by wenyuanyu »

Ndymium wrote: post #55

As a Finn, the most annoying aspect here is the unequal treatment by the government. A PHEV is treated very favourably tax wise, and the emissions calculations are very optimistic about the usage of electric power. My car is a compressed natural gas car that I drive with 100 % biogas, which is domestic made from waste and other side products of industry, and has an estimated CO2 equivalent emission of ~0 g/km. The ta…

Natural gas and biogas, are they both CH4? I heard they could be way worse than CO2 and leak might be inevitable to distribute them around the country and pumped into cars from time to time? Are there scientific evaluation on the impact?
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