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The Microsoft-Dilemma – Europe as a Software Colony – Full Documentary

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Re: The Microsoft-Dilemma – Europe as a Software Colony – Full Documentary

#51

Post by andrepd »

eastbound wrote: post #12
alexey-salmin wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Things seem to change in France though. It's relatively easy to open a startup and get tax discounts for research and innovative work. Then you fly-in employees (I'm one of them) on passeport talent which is very easy to get and lasts 4 years. Average IT salaries in Europe are much lower than in US, which is unpleasant but allows to run an IT startup with less funding and healthier economics. However the gap to close…

So you say the best thing about France is that we can hire someone else than French people. And you are kind of right: We have a thing against companies with large high-low salary difference (something like a rest of revenge against the rich), and make them simply not possible, hindering the ability to build megacorporations. Apple wouldn’t have been possible here. We simply halt growth at median size and earn a good…

>We have a thing against companies with large high-low salary difference

Yeah why would anyone dislike the idea of a run of the mill techbro making 50x more money than the janitor.

I also don't see what this observation has to do with hiring immigrants or not.

Re: The Microsoft-Dilemma – Europe as a Software Colony – Full Documentary

#52

Post by pjerem »

eastbound wrote: post #34
alexey-salmin wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Silicon valley was largely built by immigrants too. I believe in this concept, people who have enough determination to move are already above some potential energy threshold. And this threshold despite being relatively low still cuts off a huge part of local population who didn't have to pass it. I've seen it at work both for internal and international moves.

By focussing on immigration, you missed the main point. I’ll simplify as: French people eat the rich.

lol, no !

That’s a myth. Ultra-rich and rich people are as powerful in France than anywhere else.

The myth "French people eat the rich" probably comes from the fact that our system discourages social upheaval.

It’s not the French people but the elites in power who don’t like people being rich if they are not from the same cast (prestigious schools).

French people only eat the richest when they want to steal our social benefits, and even that is becoming more and more rare since most media are now owned by billionaires and are spreading neoliberal narrative.

Re: The Microsoft-Dilemma – Europe as a Software Colony – Full Documentary

#53

Post by rurban »

sharpneli wrote: post #33
roenxi wrote: post #2

One of the interesting things about real colonialism is that the Europeans had wildly better legal infrastructure, that supported wildly better economic infrastructure, which supported wildly better military technology, which supported colonies. The proof in the pudding is that Europe's legal structure is unsupportive and hinders software development on the scale of an Apple or a Microsoft. Until they fix that, they…

Another issue are non competes. Everyone wants to get a tech sector like California but insist on having non competition agreements being either valid or conditionally valid meaning there is a gray area that stifles innovation.

> gray area that stifles innovation

Innovation by theft? Well, California is a very special outlier https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-compete_clause

Re: The Microsoft-Dilemma – Europe as a Software Colony – Full Documentary

#54

Post by croes »

dijit wrote: post #14
oneshtein wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that when data is stored in the cloud, I don't have full control over it. My data hold as hostage against me. We need to break up data storage from data processing. Imagine if all your data was stored in a secure, independent location, like a large vault. You could then choose which services could access your data, allowing you to use multiple services simultaneously. Better, if this will be on browser…

How would that even help? Are we forgetting decades of office suite incompatibility? The main reason most european companies use Office365 over alternatives is: 1. Fear of retraining 2. Fear of untrodden path but most crucially: 3. Fear of incompatibility with other businesses

>3. Fear of incompatibility with other businesses

That's the reason why malware has it easy because companies still send office documents that should be a PDF.

Most of Words featured aren't used anyway because most people don't know them.

The rest is some Excel tools somebody once created which heavily rely on VBA but nobody can support them because they guy who made them already has left the company.

Have seen that more than once.

Re: The Microsoft-Dilemma – Europe as a Software Colony – Full Documentary

#55

Post by flakeoil »

oneshtein wrote: post #6
kfk wrote: post #5

The challenge with Microsoft in Europe is that it is so convenient, it doesn’t make business sense to consider alternatives. See how easily MS won market share over Slack (MS Teams) and PowerBI (Tableau / Qlik). They have such a big bundle of services that any single player has to be either amazingly good, or specialized, to win maybe 1-2% of market share. The only way I see Europe doing something about it is antitru…

The problem is that when data is stored in the cloud, I don't have full control over it. My data hold as hostage against me. We need to break up data storage from data processing. Imagine if all your data was stored in a secure, independent location, like a large vault. You could then choose which services could access your data, allowing you to use multiple services simultaneously. Better, if this will be on browser…

It's not about data, it's about being pre-installed in the OS, being first to market, being the default at school, bundled as an office pack with other tools, networks effects as people already know it it's easier to continue to use it etc. Where the data is stored is secondary.

Most companies have a solution for network storage or cloud storage and most software will function with it. For personal use most people use their local hard disk and others use a cloud provider as a network drive. Or whatever proprietary storage solution the software supports.

Re: The Microsoft-Dilemma – Europe as a Software Colony – Full Documentary

#56

Post by croes »

inglor wrote: post #40
oneshtein wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that when data is stored in the cloud, I don't have full control over it. My data hold as hostage against me. We need to break up data storage from data processing. Imagine if all your data was stored in a secure, independent location, like a large vault. You could then choose which services could access your data, allowing you to use multiple services simultaneously. Better, if this will be on browser…

Hi, I work for Microsoft (just a dev), all (most?) our apps are actually designed to work with third party compliant hosting with an open protocol called WOPI. So for example you can use Excel online with Sharepoint/OneDrive (two different hosts btw) but you can also use many maany third party hosts. Additionally third party tools can programmatically access the first party hosts (like sharepoint). I don't like Micro…

The problem is the cloud as such.

And MS tries to force you into the cloud.

Re: The Microsoft-Dilemma – Europe as a Software Colony – Full Documentary

#57

Post by pjerem »

forty wrote: post #47
eastbound wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By focussing on immigration, you missed the main point. I’ll simplify as: French people eat the rich.

It's very possible to be very rich in France. It's not the result of random luck that both the richest man and the richest woman in the world were french not that long ago (Bernard Arnaud and Liliane Bettencourt). You should not buy the right wing discourse that in France rich people are too taxed and they flee blabla. This is just a way to push their right wing agenda. I'm myself quite rich and I'm doing well, so do…

I agree with you, and French people have nothing against riches as long as they don’t try to evade taxation. We have plenty of rich people who just contribute to the social system and live their life.

What French people don’t like is when elites try to steal our social system.

However your example isn’t really fair to be honest : Arnault and Bettencourt are really not self-made families, they are both from historical bourgeoisie. But we do have our fair share of new millionaires from the startup ecosystem.

Re: The Microsoft-Dilemma – Europe as a Software Colony – Full Documentary

#58

Post by croes »

Kwpolska wrote: post #23
fulafel wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The convenience and business sense argument could make sense if the value of a communication platform was small and close to its cost. But it's not. Similarly as it doesn't make business sense to rent the cheapest or easiest to lease office exactly because a good office to your company is more valuable than its cost. People hate Teams/Office because it's so low quality, effecting a large drag on communication. It's a…

> People hate Teams/Office because it's so low quality People hate Office? I don't think I've seen any significant hate for Microsoft Office (but I personally hate LibreOffice). > calendar has hardcoded top-down management assumptions What? Where? Is this about the list of other calendars defaulting to showing people under the same manager? > information is siloed to only meeting participants You can configure it to…

The hate for Office depends on the use case.

The more sophisticated your documents get the more you hate Office.

Re: The Microsoft-Dilemma – Europe as a Software Colony – Full Documentary

#59

Post by fragmede »

rurban wrote: post #53
sharpneli wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another issue are non competes. Everyone wants to get a tech sector like California but insist on having non competition agreements being either valid or conditionally valid meaning there is a gray area that stifles innovation.

> gray area that stifles innovation Innovation by theft? Well, California is a very special outlier https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-compete_clause

Innovation by theft is how Hollywood got its start. too far from New Jersey for the patent protections of Thomas Edison to be enforced, independent filmmakers were able to make movies without paying royalties

Re: The Microsoft-Dilemma – Europe as a Software Colony – Full Documentary

#60

Post by Gud »

roenxi wrote: post #2

One of the interesting things about real colonialism is that the Europeans had wildly better legal infrastructure, that supported wildly better economic infrastructure, which supported wildly better military technology, which supported colonies. The proof in the pudding is that Europe's legal structure is unsupportive and hinders software development on the scale of an Apple or a Microsoft. Until they fix that, they…

Not every European country is the same, the rules and regulations vastly differ. It is true that the EU is "well regulated", but other countries with other legal frameworks and business culture do exist.

Even within the EU, doing work and business can be very different.

My personal favorites to work in are the Netherlands and Switzerland. Easy going people, flat hierarchies, cooperative and forgiving of mistakes, though YMMV as always.

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