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Clojure's machine learning ecosystem

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Re: Clojure's machine learning ecosystem

#51

Post by mark_l_watson »

koito17 wrote: post #33
cmiles74 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The big push for people to use the Clojure CLI tool seems like shooting themselves in the foot.

I still use Leiningen since it covers practically all of my needs, including the needs of the teams in the past two businesses I've worked for. The Slack group has pretty vocal people pushing for deps.edn. It's a bit amusing seeing people slowly build their own Leiningen out of ad-hoc Makefile^W^W Babashka scripts and copy-pasting build.clj files across their projects. (Not to mention, nobody can remember what the -X…

I agree. I have been a casual user of Clojure for many years, really since the beginning, and lein has always worked fine for me.

Re: Clojure's machine learning ecosystem

#52

Post by BaculumMeumEst »

lgrapenthin wrote: post #16
BaculumMeumEst wrote: post #12

For web server stuff, I still think Clojure is extremely solid. But I’ve come to really prefer Racket for general purpose programming. I really like the package manager, I like that there’s an IDE with a visual step debugger (seriously, why do almost no lisp people value this?), that it’s multi paradigm, and that the language continues to improve and evolve. Clojure just has so many finicky or annoying things about i…

Most Clojure devs I know already have lots of experience and can debug faster in their head, with the occasional help of printing a value. But check out this cool Clojure debugger, it even has time travel https://www.flow-storm.org/ We also have a debugger in Emacs/CIDER. Your other complaints read like you haven't dug really far, or they are outdated.

> The easiest way to run and learn FlowStorm with ClojureStorm is by running the repl tutorial, like this :

;; on Linux and OSX clj -Sforce -Sdeps '{:deps {} :aliases {:dev {:classpath-overrides {org.clojure/clojure nil} :extra-deps {com.github.flow-storm/clojure {:mvn/version "RELEASE"} com.github.flow-storm/flow-storm-dbg {:mvn/version "RELEASE"}} :jvm-opts ["-Dclojure.storm.instrumentEnable=true" "-Dclojure.storm.instrumentOnlyPrefixes=user"]}}}' -A:dev

;; on Windows clj -Sforce -Sdeps '{:deps {} :aliases {:dev {:classpath-overrides {org.clojure/clojure nil} :extra-deps {com.github.flow-storm/clojure {:mvn/version """RELEASE"""} com.github.flow-storm/flow-storm-dbg {:mvn/version """RELEASE"""}} :jvm-opts ["""-Dclojure.storm.instrumentEnable=true""" """-Dclojure.storm.instrumentOnlyPrefixes=user"""]}}}' -A:dev

————

I hate this so much

Re: Clojure's machine learning ecosystem

#53

Post by lgrapenthin »

BaculumMeumEst wrote: post #52
lgrapenthin wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most Clojure devs I know already have lots of experience and can debug faster in their head, with the occasional help of printing a value. But check out this cool Clojure debugger, it even has time travel https://www.flow-storm.org/ We also have a debugger in Emacs/CIDER. Your other complaints read like you haven't dug really far, or they are outdated.

> The easiest way to run and learn FlowStorm with ClojureStorm is by running the repl tutorial, like this : ;; on Linux and OSX clj -Sforce -Sdeps '{:deps {} :aliases {:dev {:classpath-overrides {org.clojure/clojure nil} :extra-deps {com.github.flow-storm/clojure {:mvn/version "RELEASE"} com.github.flow-storm/flow-storm-dbg {:mvn/version "RELEASE"}} :jvm-opts ["-Dclojure.storm.instrumentEnable=true" "-Dclojure.storm.…

You can just copy paste this and replace RELEASE with the version number. If you want to dig deeper, the CLI and deps options used here are well documented under https://clojure.org/reference/deps_and_cli

Re: Clojure's machine learning ecosystem

#54

Post by icey »

actionfromafar wrote: post #7
nextos wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would not say it is such a small niche. There are job openings here and there. It is much easier to find a Clojure job than a F# or a Haskell job in my experience. This may be of course different depending on your location. The problem is that an entire ecosystem is more than just a new language. Clojure has some really interesting libraries, but the rest relies on Java. It is a good ecosystem nonetheless. Julia is…

And imagine if F# had an alternative native "runtime" (i.e. not married CLR and dotnet) grafted onto Fortran. Resistance is futile, indeed.

Isn’t this effectively OCaml? Minus the Fortran part but it doesn’t need any other runtime.

Re: Clojure's machine learning ecosystem

#55

Post by djtango »

BaculumMeumEst wrote: post #52
lgrapenthin wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most Clojure devs I know already have lots of experience and can debug faster in their head, with the occasional help of printing a value. But check out this cool Clojure debugger, it even has time travel https://www.flow-storm.org/ We also have a debugger in Emacs/CIDER. Your other complaints read like you haven't dug really far, or they are outdated.

> The easiest way to run and learn FlowStorm with ClojureStorm is by running the repl tutorial, like this : ;; on Linux and OSX clj -Sforce -Sdeps '{:deps {} :aliases {:dev {:classpath-overrides {org.clojure/clojure nil} :extra-deps {com.github.flow-storm/clojure {:mvn/version "RELEASE"} com.github.flow-storm/flow-storm-dbg {:mvn/version "RELEASE"}} :jvm-opts ["-Dclojure.storm.instrumentEnable=true" "-Dclojure.storm.…

What do you hate about it?

You can run a project with a library in a repl with a one liner - seems handy. Don't even need to create a file

Re: Clojure's machine learning ecosystem

#56

Post by armed »

cess11 wrote: post #11
kleiba wrote: post #2

I remember there used to be so much excitement about Clojure - it certainly was the "tech du jour" for a long while, also on the HN front page. It was the "...in Rust" of its day. But is it just me or has it gotten awfully quiet around Clojure? I mean, it is of course expected that no novelty can stay in the lime light forever. But what has become of all of the excitement? My impression is that Clojure failed to live…

Aren't they having problems with new Java versions? Heard someone say something along those lines a while ago, or I misunderstood. It also seems Rich Hickey kind of stopped doing interesting talks, and some big bank bought into it and no one really likes banks.

It is not true, currently I'm maintaining a desktop app which is shipped to 3 different platforms and 3 architectures (x86, x86-64, arm64) and runs various versions of JRE (from jre8 to jre22). Most (90%) of the libraries are fully compatible, only some are using latest features such as virtual threads, but it is easy to avoid.

Re: Clojure's machine learning ecosystem

#57

Post by banashark »

Capricorn2481 wrote: post #43
throw868788 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its funny because I've found the opposite; the fact that the smaller community (and lets face it - most FP langs have a much smaller community than needed to get the scale you are after) the more it needs to piggy back on the army of engineers in the mainstream language target and stick to only its value add as a technology. There were web frameworks in F# that were written from scratch, but fundamentally ASP.NET is…

For me it's not that using Asp.net from F# is bad, but the little things that add up. Like I said, if you want to use Microsoft Identity, you need to either write your own backend that doesn't use EFcore or use .NET 6 instead of 8. Why? EFcore is essentially a scaffolding library. You can't use it from F# without EFcore.FSharp. EFCore.FSharp doesn't support anything higher than .NET 6. So now we have a scenario where…

I understand where you're coming from on these 100%, but I believe some of the conclusions might be more dire than they are in practice.

Both identity and efcore both work fine with F#. What _doesn't_ work is the EF Core design-time support (having models auto-create your schema) and scaffolding razor pages with F# (razor pages just doesn't work in general).

Calling these APIs (authing your users, and interacting with the database) work fine.

I've used mostly database-first design, and tweaked the stock identity pages code anyways so these things haven't affected me a ton (though I _would_ like to use razor pages, since it seems nice and simple for the 80% use-case).

Re: Clojure's machine learning ecosystem

#58

Post by cess11 »

yayitswei wrote: post #15
cess11 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aren't they having problems with new Java versions? Heard someone say something along those lines a while ago, or I misunderstood. It also seems Rich Hickey kind of stopped doing interesting talks, and some big bank bought into it and no one really likes banks.

Interesting is subjective, but Rich gave a talk at the most recent Clojure Conj.

I looked at ClojureTV and that's all I saw from recent years.

Re: Clojure's machine learning ecosystem

#59

Post by cess11 »

armed wrote: post #56
cess11 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aren't they having problems with new Java versions? Heard someone say something along those lines a while ago, or I misunderstood. It also seems Rich Hickey kind of stopped doing interesting talks, and some big bank bought into it and no one really likes banks.

It is not true, currently I'm maintaining a desktop app which is shipped to 3 different platforms and 3 architectures (x86, x86-64, arm64) and runs various versions of JRE (from jre8 to jre22). Most (90%) of the libraries are fully compatible, only some are using latest features such as virtual threads, but it is easy to avoid.

OK, good to hear. Couldn't find anything clear about it when web searching and looking at documentation.

Re: Clojure's machine learning ecosystem

#60

Post by cess11 »

lgrapenthin wrote: post #18
cess11 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aren't they having problems with new Java versions? Heard someone say something along those lines a while ago, or I misunderstood. It also seems Rich Hickey kind of stopped doing interesting talks, and some big bank bought into it and no one really likes banks.

None of this is true.

Sure, nothing is true, everything is permitted.
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