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A 29-year-old on the difficulties of landing a first job

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Re: A 29-year-old on the difficulties of landing a first job

#51

Post by krschultz »

DanI-S wrote: post #37

There are a shocking number of people here with no outward empathy, understanding nor willingness to see outside of their own limited experience. The world is not the tech industry. Not everybody has the same perspective as you. In fact, more people find themselves in this chap's shoes than in yours. You're likely posting on here because you're under some illusion that you're an entrepreneur. How can you build a succ…

I agree that CS majors/professionals aren't representative of the rest of the economy.

But this guy also isn't representative of the rest of the economy.

My brother has an architecture degree. He graduated college in 2008. That is about the worst major you can have right now, and the unemployement rate for that degree is very high right now. To add insult to injury, architecture is a 5 year degree so he gave up 1 year of earning potential and tacked on more debt.

He was interning at an architecture firm before graduation, and started working there full time after graduation. About 6 months later, they went bankrupt and he was unemployed.

He got another job tangentially related to architecture and construction for the last 3 years, but wasn't very happy with the salary.

Meanwhile he has been applying for better jobs. Not 100+ like the author of this article, but networking through people at school and work. He interviewed with 3 or 4 major companies that would have been 'good' jobs. They all basically said, we are impressed with your resume and you personally, but we have a glut of people applying with 10 years of experience and you effectively have 0.

Finally in the last two weeks, one of those interviews came through. He was given an offer at a salary far lower than he would like, but it's in the industry he wants to work in. He took the job, at least he will now build experience.

It's a long freaking road sometimes, but throwing your hands up and saying 'my life is over' at age 29 won't get you anywhere.

And even with all the trials and tribulations - a 5 year degree and 3.5 years of work experience, my brother is only 27. So he still has 2 years before he turns into this guy. What the heck are you doing looking for your first job at 29?

Re: A 29-year-old on the difficulties of landing a first job

#52

Post by spacemanaki »

zeefo08 wrote: post #46
spacemanaki wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I really wish someone could explain this to me. I'll try, although I don't have any special insights, I don't think it's mysterious. From goodside's comment: "I majored in CS." From yours: "CS and physics maajor". I probably don't have to tell you that there's tremendous demand for so-called STEM majors. I don't know about your friends' majors, but these are really both "isolated, non-representative examples". I th…

>I think there are plenty of people going through what this 29-yo is going through, and part of that might be because they have degrees in things like English, Art history, Philosophy This. I have friends who majored in the humanities and are now working retail and restaurants. I feel bad for my friend with an English degree stuck working at Barnes and Noble but I also understand the flipside, which is if you're a Ph…

I don't know for sure what real world use a Philosophy degree provides, but I'm pretty sure there are a couple of people working where I am now who majored in Philosophy, and there are definitely a few english majors. They are working as product managers, programmers, and operations/sys admin roles.

My point was that, if you're going to indulge yourself by spending 4 years studying something like Philosophy or english, be realistic and realize that there are few places out there ready to hand you a cushy job "in your field" just because you have the degree.

We've (relatively privileged Americans) gotten ourselves into a bit of trouble by telling kids that they can grow up to be whatever they want and that they should follow their dreams, along with sending most of the off to universities without a clue as to what they will study there or do when they finish.

FWIW I have almost no idea what I'm talking about. I haven't seen studies about who among my cohort of "millenials" has been affected most by long term unemployment, etc, is it really the newly minted philosophy majors? Or are these stories just gobbled up by the press and the sense that there are hordes of humanities grads working as waiters and waitresses somewhat of a myth? Likely the real story is something in the middle and more complicated.

Re: A 29-year-old on the difficulties of landing a first job

#53

Post by paulhauggis »

zeefo08 wrote: post #46
spacemanaki wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I really wish someone could explain this to me. I'll try, although I don't have any special insights, I don't think it's mysterious. From goodside's comment: "I majored in CS." From yours: "CS and physics maajor". I probably don't have to tell you that there's tremendous demand for so-called STEM majors. I don't know about your friends' majors, but these are really both "isolated, non-representative examples". I th…

>I think there are plenty of people going through what this 29-yo is going through, and part of that might be because they have degrees in things like English, Art history, Philosophy This. I have friends who majored in the humanities and are now working retail and restaurants. I feel bad for my friend with an English degree stuck working at Barnes and Noble but I also understand the flipside, which is if you're a Ph…

"I have friends who majored in the humanities and are now working retail and restaurants."

The problem is that this isn't just the case in a bad economy, it's the case always. People that major in the humanities generally don't have a lot of job prospects..they never did.

Re: A 29-year-old on the difficulties of landing a first job

#54

Post by krschultz »

DanBC wrote: post #17
patio11 wrote: post #4

If you were my little brother, and you told me that you had applied to 100 jobs you were strongly qualified for and got zero offers, I would put on my big brother pants and make some fairly pointed observations about your skills, beginning with lead qualification. I would then advise working on skills like lead qualification over sending out 100 more resumes into a process which, as your big brother who loves you has…

"networking" is important. I'd have thought that "paying money to get into an event in order to network" was a sub-optimal version of networking. I agree that zero responses to 100 letters and resumés mean that something is wrong with the letters or resumés. But the author claims to be researching and tailoring, so I'm not sure what's going wrong there. Certainly that amount of research and work could be spent on bui…

For me, 'networking' only really helps me when I've worked with the people. Nobody you just met at a cocktail hour with name cards is going to call you up if they have a job opening.

If you worked with someone for a few years, they will remember you when a job opens up and call you. Or at least help you when you call them.

Ideally you will have a job/internship with these people, but it works pretty well in a partnership or customer/client relationship. It even works within an open source project (though that is fairly CS specific).

Re: A 29-year-old on the difficulties of landing a first job

#55

Post by bgilroy26 »

wheaties wrote: post #25

I feel his pain. We just got done interviewing someone who had studied "web page" design. It's sad because whatever he was taught for those 4 years (while getting a 3.96 GPA) amounted to a very limited skill set. His designs were half there but his ability to actually apply or use them to a problem weren't. This is a recurring theme in many applicants that walk through our doors. There's tons of degrees I've never he…

>Finally, most don't have a way to learn it without a mentor to guide them.

When people would work one or two different jobs their entire life, it was a wise business investment to hire good kids with huge gaps in their skills just like the young man you're describing and do their job training.

With people changing jobs every 5 years, it's very difficult to square up the reasoning behind that job training investment.

Re: A 29-year-old on the difficulties of landing a first job

#56

Post by HolyHaddock »

DanBC wrote: post #43
HolyHaddock wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Well, you really need to tailor your application to be suitable for the jobs. Be clear: You mean "you need to lie". When applying to a coffee shop, for example: The person with a 4 year degree will not get the job. They will leave as soon as something better comes up. The person with a 4 year gap on their CV will also not be getting the job, as it will be assumed that they're hiding something.

No, you must not lie. You emphasise all the customer service style jobs you've had; or you say that you want to get customer service experience with a world leader company that takes service seriously.

This does not work in the current market for the kind of role we're discussing. The hiring manager is looking for criteria to turn the big pile of CVs into a small pile of interviews.

Being overqualified, or unexplained gaps fit the bill perfectly. It really does not matter how well tailored the experience, or how impressive the covering letter.

Re: A 29-year-old on the difficulties of landing a first job

#57

Post by zeefo08 »

spacemanaki wrote: post #52
zeefo08 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I think there are plenty of people going through what this 29-yo is going through, and part of that might be because they have degrees in things like English, Art history, Philosophy This. I have friends who majored in the humanities and are now working retail and restaurants. I feel bad for my friend with an English degree stuck working at Barnes and Noble but I also understand the flipside, which is if you're a Ph…

I don't know for sure what real world use a Philosophy degree provides, but I'm pretty sure there are a couple of people working where I am now who majored in Philosophy, and there are definitely a few english majors. They are working as product managers, programmers, and operations/sys admin roles. My point was that, if you're going to indulge yourself by spending 4 years studying something like Philosophy or englis…

I think this guys hits it on the mark a bit: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3991574

Still, I pursued my degree with a future career in mind. I don't get the English majors. "I like books" doesn't ring of career prospects.

Re: A 29-year-old on the difficulties of landing a first job

#58

Post by mbenjaminsmith »

GFischer wrote: post #22

"Owning a home that's bigger than 500 square feet. (hint: that's not big.) " That's U.S. entitlement for you. 500 square feet is perfectly reasonable, I live on about the same, and I rent it (and I'm 31 years old). A 500 square feet small apartment in Barcelona is about 200.000 euros right now, and 80.000 here in Uruguay. I agree that it's not ideal for raising kids, but it's not something to whine about. Edit: as ot…

I'm formerly of the US but I was going to say most of what you did.

There is absolutely a sense of entitlement in North America that seems pretty odd if you've lived in other countries.

My place is lot bigger than 500 sq feet but I've also been working since I was 14, left the US for Asia at 23 and have worked my ass off every day since college.

Beyond getting laid being a foreigner isn't usually a net gain in my experience. For every door is might open it closes one or more. My first company had heavy staff requirements (which meant lots of salaries, lots of HR time and lots of rent) but no bank would even talk to me (and my partners) because we were foreigners. We had to bootstrap the company with will alone.

Where the advantage lies is the perspective emigrating gives you. It allows you to better see how things truly are and focus on what's important. As screwed up as the US economy might be I have many Asian friends who have emigrated there in the last decade and have done very well for themselves. Why? Because they were willing to work their assess off.

Re: A 29-year-old on the difficulties of landing a first job

#59

Post by xarien »

If you send out 100-200 resumes a week and it's not working, the obviously thing to do is to send out more right? I can't tell you how much this article rubs me the wrong way as I'm a firm believer of working smarter over working harder (although both would be pretty awesome). Yes, the system is kind of jacked at the moment especially with the way that jobs get posted, but you can't just bang your head against it all day long while complaining...

IMO, the easiest thing to do is actually volunteering some time (crazy right?) for a non-profit organization to:

1) Build up skill sets with real experience 2) Network with people of influence 3) Give back to the community

Paying it forward has always worked well for me and it makes a positive impact. Who doesn't love a win-win situation?

Re: A 29-year-old on the difficulties of landing a first job

#60

Post by danking00 »

Wilya wrote: post #38
danking00 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really wish someone could explain this to me. My local observations are the same as parent. I have no unemployed, graduated friends, in fact, I have still-in-school but employed friends. They're all making great salaries and living in fun cities like San Fran, New York, and Boston. I practically have a job offer at a firm in New Tork and I'm a year from graduating and I've a decent shot at graduate programs too. I…

CS field in America is about as easy as it gets, in terms of finding a job. Demand is absurdly high. That's not the case for every field. That's not even true for CS, as soon as you get out of the country. The column is about someone in (apparently) Canada, who doesn't seem like he's in tech.

Agreed, which was part of my motivation for entering the field. Also, a reason why I've avoided the sorts of relationships which will tie me to one geographic area.

On the subject of solutions, has our society been incredibly dishonest with this person? Why didn't his parents, teachers, or friends tip him off to the frustrating future of the field he is in? Is this a systemic problem, or is he an outlier? Where have we failed him?

I wish I had more data on this guy and people like him.

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