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The First Cat War

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Re: The First Cat War

#51

Post by whateveracct »

zachmu wrote: post #33
whateveracct wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All cats spend most of their day sleeping. It is true that cats thrive when engaged. But it's very possible to engage indoor cats.

Not in the same way. I've had indoor and outdoor cats. And I've had indoor cats that we started letting outside. The change in their behavior when they have access to the outdoors is palpable. They come alive in a very obvious and dramatic way. This isn't really surprising when you stop and think about it. We seldom make the argument that zoo animals are living their best lives compared to their wild cousins despite…

I think you're anthropomorphizing housecats a bit here. A housecat who gets multiple square meals of catfood a day, played with, gets to cuddle with their owner or other cats, and sleeps safely in the sun for 3/4 of the day will live a happier and longer [1] life than an outdoor cat.

Now, you have to still mind your indoor cat. They need stimulation (look up "eat hunt bathe sleep") and attention and a good diet and cat-friendly environment. But give them that, and there's really no argument that being outdoors is obviously better. It's more that the outdoors gives some of that stuff by default, so compared to a cat owner who doesn't fully invest in their cat, maybe there's a case.

But if you understand cats, you get that that "coming alive" isn't some "free at last" sort of thing.

[1] Outdoor cats die way earlier than indoor cats

Re: The First Cat War

#52

Post by nullstyle »

permo-w wrote: post #50
nullstyle wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

the incredibly adversarial tone of this comment, combined with the myriad studies correlating toxoplasmosis with aggression and poor decision-making in humans doesn't exactly help your case, does it? go and shout at someone else

[flagged]

Re: The First Cat War

#53

Post by zachmu »

whateveracct wrote: post #51
zachmu wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not in the same way. I've had indoor and outdoor cats. And I've had indoor cats that we started letting outside. The change in their behavior when they have access to the outdoors is palpable. They come alive in a very obvious and dramatic way. This isn't really surprising when you stop and think about it. We seldom make the argument that zoo animals are living their best lives compared to their wild cousins despite…

I think you're anthropomorphizing housecats a bit here. A housecat who gets multiple square meals of catfood a day, played with, gets to cuddle with their owner or other cats, and sleeps safely in the sun for 3/4 of the day will live a happier and longer [1] life than an outdoor cat. Now, you have to still mind your indoor cat. They need stimulation (look up "eat hunt bathe sleep") and attention and a good diet and c…

Just reporting what I've noticed from my own cats. There's an entire aspect of their personality that doesn't come out when they are restricted to indoors. I don't think it's possible to fully replicate what cats get from being outdoors, but a lot of people convince themselves it is.

Of course going outside is dangerous for cats. It's dangerous for people too but we still do it.

Re: The First Cat War

#54

Post by whateveracct »

zachmu wrote: post #53
whateveracct wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're anthropomorphizing housecats a bit here. A housecat who gets multiple square meals of catfood a day, played with, gets to cuddle with their owner or other cats, and sleeps safely in the sun for 3/4 of the day will live a happier and longer [1] life than an outdoor cat. Now, you have to still mind your indoor cat. They need stimulation (look up "eat hunt bathe sleep") and attention and a good diet and c…

Just reporting what I've noticed from my own cats. There's an entire aspect of their personality that doesn't come out when they are restricted to indoors. I don't think it's possible to fully replicate what cats get from being outdoors, but a lot of people convince themselves it is. Of course going outside is dangerous for cats. It's dangerous for people too but we still do it.

It's not the same kind of dangerous.

Re: The First Cat War

#55

Post by devmor »

tetris11 wrote: post #9
devmor wrote: post #7

If you love cats, keep your cat indoors. They are quite happy when provided for - especially if you've got two. My wife works full time at a nonprofit no-kill shelter, and the amount of sick and miserable cats that come in rescued from the outdoors is mind boggling. Strays do not live happy (or very lengthy) lives. If you have strays around, consider enrolling in your local TNR (Trap, Neuter, Release) program, to hel…

My old roommate has two british shorthairs, they're basically his kids. They live on the top floor of a four floor house, and never leave the 50m² apartment. They spend their days sleeping and doing not much else. Down on the street, a neighbour also has a shorthair, almost an identical clone to my roommates. The cat has free reign of the neighbourhood, and the alertness in its eyes makes me realise that it has a muc…

I don't think "alertness observed in eyes" is not an empirical measure of life quality as disease, lifespan, diet and temperament are generally considered.

If you believe that you have reasonably significant information to the contrary of the general consensus of Veterinary Science, I implore you to publish your research and begin the conversation so that more cats are treated better.

If, however, you realize that your hunch is simply anthropomorphism of a domesticated animal, I would ask you to reconsidered your preconceived notion.

Re: The First Cat War

#56

Post by pg_1234 »

Articles from 1916 and 1923 are not necessarily the "best source of truth".

Understanding of "the facts" evolves with hindsight.

After all ... Adolf Hitler was Time Magazine's Man of the Year in 1938, and Joseph Stalin featured twice 1939, 1942.

Times change.

Re: The First Cat War

#57

Post by tetris11 »

devmor wrote: post #55
tetris11 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My old roommate has two british shorthairs, they're basically his kids. They live on the top floor of a four floor house, and never leave the 50m² apartment. They spend their days sleeping and doing not much else. Down on the street, a neighbour also has a shorthair, almost an identical clone to my roommates. The cat has free reign of the neighbourhood, and the alertness in its eyes makes me realise that it has a muc…

I don't think "alertness observed in eyes" is not an empirical measure of life quality as disease, lifespan, diet and temperament are generally considered. If you believe that you have reasonably significant information to the contrary of the general consensus of Veterinary Science, I implore you to publish your research and begin the conversation so that more cats are treated better. If, however, you realize that yo…

Can you provide articles I can read to update myself?

Re: The First Cat War

#58

Post by devmor »

tetris11 wrote: post #57
devmor wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think "alertness observed in eyes" is not an empirical measure of life quality as disease, lifespan, diet and temperament are generally considered. If you believe that you have reasonably significant information to the contrary of the general consensus of Veterinary Science, I implore you to publish your research and begin the conversation so that more cats are treated better. If, however, you realize that yo…

Can you provide articles I can read to update myself?

Certainly. Here are a few articles from reputable sources:

- https://spca.bc.ca/faqs/indoor-cats-vs-outdoor-cats/

- https://www.animalhumanesociety.org/resource/are-outdoor-cat...

- https://www.banfield.com/en/Wellness-at-banfield/kitten-hub/...

And because I found it interesting, this study that aligns more with your point of view that concluded that cats who are allowed to roam do get more intellectual fulfillment than indoor-only cats on average: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10451177/

I would also like to note that I have seen firsthand how much cats infected with FIV and FeLV suffer when not actively treated, and all other considerations aside, I would never let my cats roam outside without a leash because of the prevalence of those diseases alone.

Re: The First Cat War

#59

Post by tetris11 »

devmor wrote: post #58
tetris11 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you provide articles I can read to update myself?

Certainly. Here are a few articles from reputable sources: - https://spca.bc.ca/faqs/indoor-cats-vs-outdoor-cats/ - https://www.animalhumanesociety.org/resource/are-outdoor-cat... - https://www.banfield.com/en/Wellness-at-banfield/kitten-hub/... And because I found it interesting, this study that aligns more with your point of view that concluded that cats who are allowed to roam do get more intellectual fulfillment…

Thanks for these -- I guess supervised outdoor activities might be good compromise
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