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Unpowered cargo gliders on tow ropes promise 65% cheaper air freight

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Re: Unpowered cargo gliders on tow ropes promise 65% cheaper air freight

#51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> myth oft-repeated on HN. US freight rail does cheaply transport a lot of tonnage, but it is a shadow of its former self What is the myth? It is a shadow of its former self. But it retain its mantle of the 1850s as the world’s largest rail network.

The Russian empire's is larger by extent.

A bit less, by tonnage per annum.

    In a typical year, (USofA) freight railroads haul around 1.6 billion tons of raw materials and finished goods. Redesigned railcars have helped increase average tonnage. In 2022, the average freight train carried 4,089 tons, up from 2,923 tons in 2000.
https://www.aar.org/data-center/

    According to official statistics data, as of October 2023, the overall traffic (in Russian rail freight) amounted to 1 billion 243.8 million tons
https://www.railfreight.com/railfreight/2023/10/31/russian-r...

Smaller, by total track length:

    The total length of line used by the Russian Railways is, at 85,500 kilometres (53,130 mi), one of the largest in the world, exceeded only by the United States.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_rail_transport_in_R...

The arc of Russia across the globe is likely what "wins" on east | west extent, but less total track carrying less tonnage.

Re: Unpowered cargo gliders on tow ropes promise 65% cheaper air freight

#52
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Travel time of 8 hours vs 3 weeks... most things being transported by plane are ones where time is of the essence.

There’s such a huge time gap between our current rail and air that many things that are somewhat time sensitive end up flying which would use a reasonably quick rail network. NYC to LA is well under 2,800 miles so getting just about anywhere in the continental US on rail in under 48 hours is a completely reasonable standard. Yet, people moving from Texas to Florida don’t just park a U-Haul on a flatbed and fly, becau…

You think a completely reasonable standard is for a train to average 58 mph all the way across the united states without stopping?

What about all the slowdowns due to extremely rough terrain? The fact people have to be swapped out? The fact that not all cars are going all the way across the country and also have to be swapped out?

58mph average is insane.

Re: Unpowered cargo gliders on tow ropes promise 65% cheaper air freight

#53

What the US needs is to fix its rail system. eminent domain the whole thing, pay off the robber barons and just run it like it matters to get shit from here to there.

When it comes to freight rail, the US is in the top handful of countries in the world by pretty much any metric. We’re not great at passenger rail, but we beat all of Europe when it comes to the amount of freight shipped via rail per capita, and all of Europe except Switzerland based on the percentage of total freight transported by rail.

This is true, and I've made the point myself previously on HN.

But US freight tonnage is dominated by cheap bulk goods, most notoriously coal, though grain and bulk liquids (petroleum, industrial).[0]

There's also a lot of intermodal / containerised freight, but this is almost exclusively long-haul "land bridge" traffic, with very little trade or viability for short-haul freight (Cross-country carriage still takes 10--14 days, despite the fact that a through-routed train travelling at 79 MPH (peak speed on most freight lines) could in theory make the distance in about a day and a half. For time-sensitive goods, including much fresh produce, this means that truck or air freight is the only viable option.

I've gone digging for any recently published research on new innovations in traditional freight technologies and ... there simply isn't any to speak of.[2] Much of the underlying infrastructure is literally a century or more old. The last major powerplant revolution was the introduction of the diesel-electric locomotive which will have its centennial next year.[3]

Given the present obsession with electrified lorry projects, it seems to me to make far more sense to look at optimising rail-based delivery to provide for far more flexible routing, dynamic trainset assembly and disassembly, higher-speed fright,[4] integration of light freight (e.g., document and high-value product delivery) with high-speed rail systems,[5] or rail-trolly systems, in which local delivery occurs via either autonomous or small-trainset convoys which decouple from a through system and reach endpoints or local distribution centres at lower speeds on local rail or dedicated roadbed routes. Similar discussion from about a year ago here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32967216>

______________________________

Notes:

0. Some 10 year old values by modality here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6858737>

1. Yes, there's some of each, but in general, lorry-based over-the-road haulage dominates both markets.

2. Raised two years ago here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32611937>

3. https://www.borail.org/collection/cnj-no-1000/>

4. At 120 mph, cross-country transit drops to just over a day, at 25 hours. At 160 mph, 18 hours, for same-day delivery as an option.

5. At 180 mph, typical of many high-speed rail systems, delivery time from San Francisco to Los Angeles is about 2h 15m, and routes such as NYC or Denver to Chicago, Dallas to Atlanta, or Miami to Washington, D.C., or Norfolk, VA, to Boston 5--8 hours.

Re: Unpowered cargo gliders on tow ropes promise 65% cheaper air freight

#54
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> eminent domain the whole thing, pay off the robber barons let's not frame the heaps of collateral damage that would result in as only affecting 'robber barons'.

What would that be? Not doubting you, just can't think of collateral damage.

The interstate system comes to mind, with neighborhoods torn apart.

"Wrong side of the tracks" used to be a phrase with meaning for a reason.

Re: Unpowered cargo gliders on tow ropes promise 65% cheaper air freight

#55
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>rail Wrong niche. This is in the same market as conventional air freight.

How much air freight really needs to be transferred by air, though? Air freight makes sense when you need to get something across an ocean in less than a month, or across the continent in less than a day. If the US were to invest in running the railroads efficiently, getting a package from NYC to LA in less than 72 hours should be possible - that's fast enough for regular Amazon shipping. If you electrify the railroa…

72 hours is too long. You need 48 hours or less for e-commerce or you’ll lose business to Amazon. You could go multiple warehouses but that’s a huge expense with splitting inventory especially if you have lots of low volume skus.

Re: Unpowered cargo gliders on tow ropes promise 65% cheaper air freight

#56
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much air freight really needs to be transferred by air, though? Air freight makes sense when you need to get something across an ocean in less than a month, or across the continent in less than a day. If the US were to invest in running the railroads efficiently, getting a package from NYC to LA in less than 72 hours should be possible - that's fast enough for regular Amazon shipping. If you electrify the railroa…

I think freight trains in Europe are much faster than in the US, but also much shorter (though there are plans to make them a little longer) and lighter (no double-stacked containers). So they are more costly but you get stuff from A to B faster. Electrified locomotives are better than diesel electric (e.g. an electric locomotive has 2x - 3x the power, ~6MW-9MW compared to ~3MW, so you need less locomotives, less mov…

it's probably too expensive for some of the country (mainly the great plains etc), but on the west coast and east of the Mississippi there's definitely the density to support it.

Re: Unpowered cargo gliders on tow ropes promise 65% cheaper air freight

#57
post #46

If you're happy for your gliders to travel at 100 mph instead of 500 mph, you can glide almost fuel free, making use of thermals and winds most of the way. However, the finances for such a business are hard to make work since, while you save on fuel, your very expensive aircraft does fewer flights per year. The only way to make it work would be very cheap airframes, probably without humans aboard (meaning factors of…

Only sport gliders carrying a maximum of 2 people achieve those speeds fuel free. A large, heavy cargo glider carrying a full load is just going to crash without a tow rope, regardless of winds or thermals.

You probably wouldn't go totally fuel free - you'd go mostly fuel free.

And yes, the craft would have to be absolutely huge for a decent payload - and it might make sense to use different construction techniques considering that - for example an inflatable fully pressurised craft.

Re: Unpowered cargo gliders on tow ropes promise 65% cheaper air freight

#58
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Russian empire's is larger by extent.

A bit less, by tonnage per annum. In a typical year, (USofA) freight railroads haul around 1.6 billion tons of raw materials and finished goods. Redesigned railcars have helped increase average tonnage. In 2022, the average freight train carried 4,089 tons, up from 2,923 tons in 2000. https://www.aar.org/data-center/ According to official statistics data, as of October 2023, the overall traffic (in Russian rail freig…

Exactly as I said. Russia's system's extent is broader because Russia itself is broader.

Re: Unpowered cargo gliders on tow ropes promise 65% cheaper air freight

#59
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A bit less, by tonnage per annum. In a typical year, (USofA) freight railroads haul around 1.6 billion tons of raw materials and finished goods. Redesigned railcars have helped increase average tonnage. In 2022, the average freight train carried 4,089 tons, up from 2,923 tons in 2000. https://www.aar.org/data-center/ According to official statistics data, as of October 2023, the overall traffic (in Russian rail freig…

Exactly as I said. Russia's system's extent is broader because Russia itself is broader.

That's exactly correct A.Sperm - a smaller system by track length and tonnage, stretched out thin to look bigger.
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