Live data from Hacker News

Automakers are sharing consumers' driving behavior with insurance companies

nytimes.com

51–60 of 333 posts

Re: Automakers are sharing consumers' driving behavior with insurance companies

#51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its telling how you phrase this.

If it's so telling then tell us, enough with the dark innuendos!

Appearing "safe" via slow speeds and slow turns does not equal "safe" in the real world.

Unless the car has cameras staring at you, it doesn't know if you're checking your mirrors before lane-changes, going 10-under the limit in the far left lane on a busy highway, etc.

Even then, cameras aren't good because assuming people are telling the truth when they use test-taking software, there are false positives that have to be manually-reviewed by proctors when the computer thinks you're looking in the wrong place.

(Edit: it also doesn't know if your mirrors are positioned properly so you do not have a "blindspot". In every modern vehicle I've driven, it is possible to set the mirrors so you can continuously see cars in the left or right lane next you - from the rearview mirror to the sideview mirror to the side glass. Hint, if you can see the side of your own vehicle in your sideview mirror: it is set improperly.)

---

> frequent lane changes as a risk factor.

People not willing to change lanes is how you get more traffic and more dangerous driving overall. Traffic should stay right unless passing - which means once someone is done passing, they also need to move to the right. People crusing in the left lane is how backups happen and people trying to make more dangerous lane-changes to pass on the right. Less lane changes would be a bad thing to incentivise.

If more people used cruise control in general, that might help (don't know if any studies have been done about that). As it is now, most people's speeds ebb and flow and that causes traffic, especially when they either consciously or subconscious try to speed up to match someone trying to pass them, or whether it's curves, hills, narrower lanes due to automated tollbooths, bridges, etc.

Re: Automakers are sharing consumers' driving behavior with insurance companies

#52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but to me there's another important issue, with all the tracking tech in our vehicles, who actually owns them? We need to treat this similar to the "right to repair" issue! I paid my money, so I own the product. [IF] I own the vehicle it should be my right to say what software runs in the background. Of course the company can say, "If you don't like our product, don't buy it." If I want to keep up with the lates…

> who actually owns them? We need to treat this similar to the "right to repair" issue Ownership is a bad framework for this issue—it’s too ambiguous. You can “own” a vehicle all you want, that doesn’t give you the right to fuck with its odometer or catalytic converter.

But.. it really does. As most states don't require annual inspection, you are free to smash up your odometer and sell your cat to the scrapyard. It hurts the resale value, but it's not illegal to do this at all.

Re: Automakers are sharing consumers' driving behavior with insurance companies

#53
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> isn't talked much about is the promotion, and installation of homomorphic computing or homomorphic encryption Sure, the car company will homomorphically encrypt your driving data when it sends it to its own servers. You’re trying to solve a social problem with technology. That doesn’t work.

>Sure, the car company will homomorphically encrypt your driving data when it sends it to its own servers. You can encrypt the data such that the insurance companies cannot target any particular individual (which is my problem her) but they can use the data to improve their insurance pricing models. I have no problem with a health insurance company using population data to find out how many are susceptible to say can…

> encrypt the data such that the insurance companies cannot target any particular individual (which is my problem her) but they can use the data to improve their insurance pricing models

We already have population claims statistics, a product of regulations that require reporting. What insurance companies want is discrimination within the variation.

Re: Automakers are sharing consumers' driving behavior with insurance companies

#54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but to me there's another important issue, with all the tracking tech in our vehicles, who actually owns them? We need to treat this similar to the "right to repair" issue! I paid my money, so I own the product. [IF] I own the vehicle it should be my right to say what software runs in the background. Of course the company can say, "If you don't like our product, don't buy it." If I want to keep up with the lates…

> who actually owns them? We need to treat this similar to the "right to repair" issue Ownership is a bad framework for this issue—it’s too ambiguous. You can “own” a vehicle all you want, that doesn’t give you the right to fuck with its odometer or catalytic converter.

I disagree. You can mess with odometer as much as you like. Trying to sell it off with a different amount of miles than have actually been put on it is called fraud.

You should own your car and be able to do as you wish. You should also be able to turn on or off any tracking. There are just consequences for some of the things you might want to do.

Re: Automakers are sharing consumers' driving behavior with insurance companies

#55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but to me there's another important issue, with all the tracking tech in our vehicles, who actually owns them? We need to treat this similar to the "right to repair" issue! I paid my money, so I own the product. [IF] I own the vehicle it should be my right to say what software runs in the background. Of course the company can say, "If you don't like our product, don't buy it." If I want to keep up with the lates…

> who actually owns them? We need to treat this similar to the "right to repair" issue Ownership is a bad framework for this issue—it’s too ambiguous. You can “own” a vehicle all you want, that doesn’t give you the right to fuck with its odometer or catalytic converter.

It does however give you a right to download any data that is being collected. I wonder if that's covered by GDPR.

Re: Automakers are sharing consumers' driving behavior with insurance companies

#56
post #47
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'd be surprised what French data authority (CNIL) has to say about this[1]: > Any use of personal data for an objective that is incompatible with the primary purpose of proces- sing is a misuse that is subject to administrative or criminal sanctions. > For example, a mechanic cannot sell the vehicle’s technical data to insurers to enable them to infer the driving profiles of their policyholders. There may be a lac…

With good encryption we wouldn't need to spend alot of time trying to enforce these laws

As a corporation, would I use your encryption standards if I stand to make money legally by not using them? You'll need to enforce encryption usage to force me to use these. Which currently requires these kind of laws.

What do you have in mind to ensure standards that are good for end-users are put in my place?

Re: Automakers are sharing consumers' driving behavior with insurance companies

#57
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do companies ignore regulations? Sure, some do. But saying 'they will just pay the fines' ignores the fact that we could make the fines existential, or punish board members by kicking them out of the industry. The answer to 'the regulation we haven't even tried won't work if we do it improperly' is 'let's do it, and do it properly'. I have no idea what homomorphic encryption is, but rarely do 'let's add more tech to…

I think a problem in this area is that if one avenue of data collection is denied, another one will be implemented and it becomes a game of whack-a-mole. For example the USG is forbidden from collecting communications from US citizens, but that does not keep it from buying this information from private domestic sources or from other governments.

We did not freeze the ability to pass legislation or have courts decide on the constitutionality of governmental processes. Have you given up on democracy?

Why is everyone so quick to say 'well, they are getting away with it, might as well let them' instead of trying to use our processes for the purposes which they were designed?

Re: Automakers are sharing consumers' driving behavior with insurance companies

#58
post #8

It's pretty clear we've reached the point where technology has shifted to working against us, and not for us anymore. I work in tech but as far as I am concerned, you can keep all your smart homes, cars and other gadgets and soul sucking (anti) "social" apps. Somewhere along the way technology was hijacked to control us rather than empower us. And if you don't like it: shut up because "progress" is inevitable

> we've reached the point where technology has shifted to working against us

Everyone has always said this since the dawn of farming. It’s not a particularly useful insight: the question is in how and how it is to be banned or balanced.

Re: Automakers are sharing consumers' driving behavior with insurance companies

#59
I think there are a few reasons to be mad about this, but some are better than others:

1) People don't understand they're being monitored. I think this is a good reason to be mad. People should have some understanding of the agreements they make. It's part of being a functional adult in the world. It's also annoying that the companies keep spinning this as a tool to improve your driving, when it's clearly an attempt to price insurance against a person's actual driving habits.

2) The system's assessments are opaque. I don't have a good sense of how accurate any of these measurements are, nor what system is in place to ensure that. If the information collected is consequential enough to double a person's insurance costs, there should be some effort expended to be confident that the collected metrics actually reflect reality. I didn't see anything like that in the article, maybe I missed it, but it shouldn't just be some random team in a private company doing their best.

3) People's driving habits shouldn't be shared with insurance companies. This one ... this one I think is not great. It looks like the shared data at least tries to be anonymous -- they share driving behavior and times, but not actual location data. Heck, I'd be fine with scrubbing the times and just sharing the hard start and stop and speeding numbers (assuming point 2 above is addressed). I get that a knee-jerk defensiveness about privacy would make Thomas Jefferson proud or whatever, but we strike balances on public welfare and private freedom all the time. If you're itching to manufacture 1 gram of ricin to put in a sealed glass vial above your mantle, too bad, you can't. Cars aren't ricin, but they are the shortest path between most humans and homicide. If this kind of intervention induces people to be more careful to keep their current insurance rates, I think that's reasonable. Driving like a maniac is not a human right or a protected characteristic.

Re: Automakers are sharing consumers' driving behavior with insurance companies

#60
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> who actually owns them? We need to treat this similar to the "right to repair" issue Ownership is a bad framework for this issue—it’s too ambiguous. You can “own” a vehicle all you want, that doesn’t give you the right to fuck with its odometer or catalytic converter.

I disagree. You can mess with odometer as much as you like. Trying to sell it off with a different amount of miles than have actually been put on it is called fraud. You should own your car and be able to do as you wish. You should also be able to turn on or off any tracking. There are just consequences for some of the things you might want to do.

> should own your car

Ownership is a legal concept. What it means, what that package of rights tied to a piece of property entails, is entirely dependent on the law. Using ownership as a guideline for rule-making is bad form because it’s tautology; I can justify and condemn anything on the basis of my or adjoining persons’ purported ownership rights.

The machine languages of ownership are control and possession. That’s what we’re delineating, and unfortunately it generally must be done piecemeal. In this case, the pieces are the data cars beam home. Currently, the manufacturer controls it. You and I agree—I think—that it should be the user, which we—by this conjecture—make its owner. The ownership flows from control, not the other way.

(The problem is trebled with cars given they’re typically driven on roads the driver doesn’t own nor control.)

Post reply on HN