2006, well into the era of XML being the trendy fad that every piece of Serious Business software was supposed to use. Now 18 years later, JSON seems to have displaced it. Personally, I've never found text-based formats to be a good choice for data that humans will rarely need to read or write; I much prefer simple and efficient binary formats, which can be just as extensible without the additional inefficiency and n…
Don't Invent XML Languages (2006)
51–60 of 99 posts
Re: Don't Invent XML Languages (2006)
#52I don't even know why we have any *ML. Everything they can do can be done with Lisp-syntax better.
XML is a document markup language. As in, articles and books n stuff. How in hell is that comparable to anything "Lisp-syntax"?
Re: Don't Invent XML Languages (2006)
#532006, well into the era of XML being the trendy fad that every piece of Serious Business software was supposed to use. Now 18 years later, JSON seems to have displaced it. Personally, I've never found text-based formats to be a good choice for data that humans will rarely need to read or write; I much prefer simple and efficient binary formats, which can be just as extensible without the additional inefficiency and n…
In my experience people read the JSON output of things more often than anything else in both development and in maintenance. You can certainly make a point about that being stupid, and it certainly also is stupid. It just seems to be what happens when you have a gazillion APIs and even more business processes and a lot of people who should know what they are doing, who don’t. I recently had the joy of reverse enginee…
Re: Don't Invent XML Languages (2006)
#54One thing he condemns such endeavors for is that it is unpleasant and somehow "political". I can see what he means, but this has nothing to do with "overdoing the extensibility" of XML. As Aaron Schwartz put it
"Instead of the "let's just build something that works" attitude that made the Web (and the Internet) such a roaring success, they brought the formalizing mindset of mathematicians and the institutional structures of academics and defense contractors. They formed committees to form working groups to write drafts of ontologies that carefully listed (in 100-page Word documents) all possible things in the universe and the various properties they could have, and they spent ours in Talmudic debates over whether a washing machine was a kitchen appliance or a household cleaning device. [https://www.cs.rpi.edu/~hendler/ProgrammableWebSwartz2009.ht...]"
It is true that similar endeavors are prone to looking for an Absolute Cosmic Eternal Perfect Ontological Structure (credit: Lion Kimbro). If you drop that idea in any office, you will get as many proposals for entities as there are anuses, as if anyone is entitled to an ontology.
Don't get me wrong, anyone might be entitled to submit an entity or criticize a hierarchy, but I think this is meaningful mostly in the context of targeted audience research and agile development practices. All in all, I think that the problem here is not with the 'X' in XML, but with poor organization-level practices.
Furthermore, I did follow the link and surveyed the XML languages. I did not see the apparently self-evident truth the writer sees in there. Sure, there are many of them, but how is this even an argument? Some of the listed languages seem quite cool to me, especially the science ones. And the next person might dig the legal ones. If the argument here is that "there are so many of them languages, they just can all be important" (or "real") does not sit well with me. There are tons of different programming languages, web frameworks, linux distributions, not to mention the incomprehensible multitude in other domains, such as car maker models or, well, birds.
It is just simplistic to disparage any number of things because they are too many to make readily sense of, and this is a cognitive stance I can't endorse. Look at Medical Subject Headings, or the Dewey Decimal or the Library of Congress cataloging systems. There is just a ton of things out there and for each one of those, there is a person that has more expertise on than yourself. These taxonomies might be important to them, what are you gonna do? Stop them?
A bird's view exasperation of the sheer number of things is the hallmark of a small town mentality that is untenable for the hacktivist mindset. The response here is, I guess, reusability of existing standards, and agile practices involving the user in the development process. But the author did not bring up any of these.
Re: Don't Invent XML Languages (2006)
#552006, well into the era of XML being the trendy fad that every piece of Serious Business software was supposed to use. Now 18 years later, JSON seems to have displaced it. Personally, I've never found text-based formats to be a good choice for data that humans will rarely need to read or write; I much prefer simple and efficient binary formats, which can be just as extensible without the additional inefficiency and n…
> I've never found text-based formats to be a good choice for data that humans will rarely need to read or write; A computer may need to read the data millions of times, but humans only need to read it when things goes wrong. If you take the route of using a binary format, then you need to provide a robust set of tools to view, edit, debug that format. It can absolutely work, journald is binary, but has the tooling t…
Re: Don't Invent XML Languages (2006)
#56This is less about hating on XML and more about not reinventing the wheel. I quite like XML. Things like xpath make working with it, or getting data from it much easier than JSON; though I love jq syntax and can't wait until it starts being incorporated into languages. I don't even mind xslt provided it's not being over used.
> I quite like XML. Things like xpath make working with it XPath is great. 1.0 anyway, after that everything but the new functions was nonsense. But do note: XPath is not an xml dialect, it’s a non-XML DSL being applied to documents.
I always try to go for the path of least resistant.
Re: Don't Invent XML Languages (2006)
#57Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I've never found text-based formats to be a good choice for data that humans will rarely need to read or write; A computer may need to read the data millions of times, but humans only need to read it when things goes wrong. If you take the route of using a binary format, then you need to provide a robust set of tools to view, edit, debug that format. It can absolutely work, journald is binary, but has the tooling t…
I can read from a hexdump a few binary formats I've worked with over the years. Not really harder than learning any other language, but much more concise than text-based formats.
My background is being woken up at 3AM by alert of call for systems where I have less that 100% familiarity and is asked to troubleshot. Looking at a hexdump for a format I don't know is not all that helpful. Seeming a mangled XML document, or reading the JSON output from an API call can frequently be enough to know if I need to call a developer, or if I can work with the client and fix the data.
Binary formats are absolutely a valid solution of a number of problems and if it works in your context there's no reason to change it.
Re: Don't Invent XML Languages (2006)
#58Earlier quoted context omitted.
Gotta agrees here. How many times a day do you get asked what data did your API send to my API? For me it’s daily. Need a format that is logged and able to be displayed in an admin UI somewhere, so a DB query is not needed to prove yes A was sent to you so if A is not in your system, then it’s an issue on the other side. I would not want to debug an API that talked to another API in binary…. I mean XML or JSON is sti…
I agree with the high level point, but I’m not sure I have similar experiences. No system I’ve worked on has ever directly logged over-the-wire bytes (for obvious privacy reasons), so really the protocol can be binary. In fact, for years now most of my work has been with ProtoBufs, which has amazing tooling and an oft-forgotten text format for us mortals.
Re: Don't Invent XML Languages (2006)
#59Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I've never found text-based formats to be a good choice for data that humans will rarely need to read or write; A computer may need to read the data millions of times, but humans only need to read it when things goes wrong. If you take the route of using a binary format, then you need to provide a robust set of tools to view, edit, debug that format. It can absolutely work, journald is binary, but has the tooling t…
For most things, SQLite is a very good format and somehow still underused in favour of custom formats (without or with very basic) tooling.
Re: Don't Invent XML Languages (2006)
#602006, well into the era of XML being the trendy fad that every piece of Serious Business software was supposed to use. Now 18 years later, JSON seems to have displaced it. Personally, I've never found text-based formats to be a good choice for data that humans will rarely need to read or write; I much prefer simple and efficient binary formats, which can be just as extensible without the additional inefficiency and n…
> Now 18 years later, JSON seems to have displaced it. More like, the people who didn't understand XML was designed to simplify HTML's SGML serialization moved elsewhere to misuse JSON (and YAML, and other things), the use cases and limitations of which they also failed to understand. From the XML spec (edited by Tim Bray, the author of the linked blog): > XML is a subset of SGML that is completely described in this…