Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

gitclear.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 284 posts

Re: Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

#51

Post by blauditore »

al_borland wrote: post #6

Why does this seem like such a hard problem to solve for everyone that isn’t Apple, when Apple seemingly solved the Trackpad over a decade ago? Is this it? An unknown ROI? >the highly uncertain ROI for trying to align touchpad acceleration has prevented us from proposing a system change to the default Linux settings. I can only speak for myself, but I gave up using trackpads on anything that isn’t a MacBook many year…

I'm pretty sure there's some bias present due to adaption. I'm very much used to some non-MB touchpad, and whenever I use a MB it feels worse (too slow and mushy). I feel similar pain even when switching operating systems on the same laptop, which almost certainly has to do with muscle memory. In that sense "getting it right" for Apple users would mean other manufacturers would need to exactly copy Apple's behavior, and probably make other users unhappy.

Re: Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

#52

Post by harkinian »

al_borland wrote: post #6

Why does this seem like such a hard problem to solve for everyone that isn’t Apple, when Apple seemingly solved the Trackpad over a decade ago? Is this it? An unknown ROI? >the highly uncertain ROI for trying to align touchpad acceleration has prevented us from proposing a system change to the default Linux settings. I can only speak for myself, but I gave up using trackpads on anything that isn’t a MacBook many year…

Mac trackpads have been top notch as far back as I can remember, to the iBook G3. First one I actually owned was a derelict 2006 MacBook someone had thrown away in 2012, and it was still easier to use than the modern loaner Windows laptops at school.

And now with the modern Macs, I prefer the trackpad over a mouse even on a desk. Never would've thought it before.

Re: Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

#53

Post by heleninboodler »

mrweasel wrote: post #41
dhosek wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always thought it was strange that people went through the inconveniences of plugging a mouse into their laptop when there was a trackpad right there until I had to use a Windows system and saw just how bad it was.

I have an Apple Magic Trackpad, which I use with my laptop and external monitor. There is no way I'm going to suffer the ergonomic hell that is a laptop for a second longer than I absolutely have to. It's great to be able to take your laptop with you, but it's not a device suited for hours of use. It's also illegal to work on a laptop, without external peripherals and monitor, so you need a pointing device anyway.

> There is no way I'm going to suffer the ergonomic hell that is a laptop for a second longer than I absolutely have to

I agree with this, but intentionally choosing a trackpad to put on your desk is just accepting a portion of this hell, in my opinion. The trackpad is an RSI torture device to me, because of the way you have to hold the muscles in the back of your hand tense so all but one finger is a little higher than the others.

Re: Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

#54

Post by jlokier »

recursive wrote: post #9

What exactly is smooth scrolling? Like you press the down arrow, and the scroll is animated instead of instantly snapping down by 50 pixels?

In this context, it's about scrolling when you slide your fingers along a trackpad surface.

It's supposed to be like "buttery smooth" scrolling on a smartphone. Whatever is on the screen should move with your fingers, with pixel accuracy and low delay, so it feels like you're dragging something around with your fingers.

When you let go, it might continue to scroll, as if you flicked the object with your fingers. This is called inertial scrolling. At the limits, it should show your attempt to scroll beyond the limits somehow. Apple and Android do this differently for patent reasons.

Of course with a touchpad the image isn't underneath your fingers like with a smartphone. So the scrolling amount doesn't have to be the same physical length as your finger movement. It's scaled, but it should feel similar to smartphone scrolling.

There's no arrow.

Re: Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

#56

Post by mschuster91 »

cycomanic wrote: post #33
al_borland wrote: post #6

Why does this seem like such a hard problem to solve for everyone that isn’t Apple, when Apple seemingly solved the Trackpad over a decade ago? Is this it? An unknown ROI? >the highly uncertain ROI for trying to align touchpad acceleration has prevented us from proposing a system change to the default Linux settings. I can only speak for myself, but I gave up using trackpads on anything that isn’t a MacBook many year…

I also priorise input devices and because of that I would never get a laptop without a track point. Track pads (no matter which ones) are just such a poor choice of pointing device on a laptop, requiring one to essentially move the hand away from the keyboard. Unfortunately I'm pretty much locked into thinkpads now because all other track pointers are pretty crap. The again I can't really complain thinkpads are quite…

Trackpoints IMHO suck hard, simply because you need a lot of fine motor control to precisely operate them, the texture is bad, and a single "purring cat on closed lid" event can be enough to permanently stain the screen.

Re: Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

#57

Post by samatman »

cycomanic wrote: post #33
al_borland wrote: post #6

Why does this seem like such a hard problem to solve for everyone that isn’t Apple, when Apple seemingly solved the Trackpad over a decade ago? Is this it? An unknown ROI? >the highly uncertain ROI for trying to align touchpad acceleration has prevented us from proposing a system change to the default Linux settings. I can only speak for myself, but I gave up using trackpads on anything that isn’t a MacBook many year…

I also priorise input devices and because of that I would never get a laptop without a track point. Track pads (no matter which ones) are just such a poor choice of pointing device on a laptop, requiring one to essentially move the hand away from the keyboard. Unfortunately I'm pretty much locked into thinkpads now because all other track pointers are pretty crap. The again I can't really complain thinkpads are quite…

There's a categorical difference between preferring one sort of input over another, and there being only one acceptable implementation of that category. As you indicated, if the keyboard cough nub, let's call it a nub, is your mouse pusher of choice, you pretty much own a ThinkPad, because the other ones suck.

If you like a trackpad, you have a Mac, for the same reason. I don't know if it's the hardware or the firmware, might be some of both, but no one else ships a laptop with an acceptable response curve.

I stick with the Apple ecosystem for a few reasons, but this is a big one. Even when I'm at the desktop with keyboard and trackball, I'll reach over to the laptop sometimes to pinch, or three-finger swipe, just because it's the easiest way to express my intention. The context switch from using the keyboard to using the mouse is a fairly complete one for me, which is to say I tend to spend long stretches doing one or the other. I don't place any value on staying on the home row while switching. I do place considerable value on proper pointer and scroll acceleration, reliable recognition of gestures, and input rejection when my palm or thumb happens to rest on the trackpad. Any non-Apple laptop trackpad I've tested completely fails one or all of these.

Re: Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

#58

Post by raggi »

al_borland wrote: post #6

Why does this seem like such a hard problem to solve for everyone that isn’t Apple, when Apple seemingly solved the Trackpad over a decade ago? Is this it? An unknown ROI? >the highly uncertain ROI for trying to align touchpad acceleration has prevented us from proposing a system change to the default Linux settings. I can only speak for myself, but I gave up using trackpads on anything that isn’t a MacBook many year…

multiple layers of gatekeeping, both corporate and individual. It’s understated in the article but present: hard battle to get access to configuration. After that experience there’s uncertainty if the battle to change the default is worth the investors level of effort.

Re: Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

#59

Post by nerdjon »

al_borland wrote: post #6

Why does this seem like such a hard problem to solve for everyone that isn’t Apple, when Apple seemingly solved the Trackpad over a decade ago? Is this it? An unknown ROI? >the highly uncertain ROI for trying to align touchpad acceleration has prevented us from proposing a system change to the default Linux settings. I can only speak for myself, but I gave up using trackpads on anything that isn’t a MacBook many year…

It is an interesting thing to think about, I have friends that use Windows that are shocked that I willingly chose to get an external trackpad when I use my Mac as desktop.

Even more interesting is when I see my partner try to do something on my Mac using a trackpad, he seems... apprehensive? Like he is so afraid of doing the wrong thing and for me this trackpad has never done something I didn't want it to do. Like without even thinking about it while I was re-reading this comment, I had fingers just resting on my trackpad.

It has to be a combination of software and hardware. Likely shared software and hardware.

Like is wrist detection on the trackpad the same as the wrist detection on an iPad?

I believe that the 3D Touch tech that was once in the iPhone is the same tech that is in the track pad and the Apple Watch.

We saw them use the same (or similar) tech on the iPhone home button when they removed the physical button.

Is the multitouch functionality of the trackpad the same technology as in iPhones and iPads?

I am genuinely curious about some of these because they feel like the same technology from the outside looking in and it would explain a lot about why it works as well as it does.

And yeah on the ROI, I mean they sell a $130 external trackpad... that I had zero qualms about buying. Because when using my MacBook Pro as a laptop I heavily rely on gestures. Those gestures only work if the trackpad is as perfect as it can be. But those gestures is also software.

Re: Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

#60

Post by tentacleuno »

alerighi wrote: post #50
al_borland wrote: post #6

Why does this seem like such a hard problem to solve for everyone that isn’t Apple, when Apple seemingly solved the Trackpad over a decade ago? Is this it? An unknown ROI? >the highly uncertain ROI for trying to align touchpad acceleration has prevented us from proposing a system change to the default Linux settings. I can only speak for myself, but I gave up using trackpads on anything that isn’t a MacBook many year…

I think the reason is that "a good trackpad" as well as "a good keyboard" is not something that can be measured. Let's say that the cost of a good trackpad is equivalent to the cost of, let's say, 16 more Gb of RAM. Does the user given the same price choose to by the laptop with written on the box "32Gb of RAM" or the one that says 16? The first, because 32 is better than 16! Apple is different because they have a pr…

> I think the reason is that "a good trackpad" as well as "a good keyboard" is not something that can be measured.

While I agree that these metrics can be subjective at times, I believe there are some fairly well-established features that dictate whether something is, objectively, a good product. In the case of a trackpad, gestures such as pinch to zoom are arguably an essential (for me at least), as well as stepless scrolling, configurable pointer acceleration configuration, and a reasonable size.

In the case of a keyboard, sure -- that's a whole other kettle of fish. I quite like the one on my Dell XPS, but I'm sure some others wouldn't.

However, I think you've downplayed how much a keyboard matters here: for me, it makes or breaks a laptop (or a USB keyboard, of course). When the laptop is on, I'm spending a good 70% of my time using the keyboard. Therefore, I would argue it is one of the most important things to get right.

I've come across good keyboards, bad ones, and ones that are just OK -- as an example, the more sponge-like ones on Logitech media keyboards do not make a good experience. In my experience, you have to try a keyboard to know whether you like it, but you can filter out plain terrible ones from other online reviewers' experiences.

Post reply on HN