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The Supreme Court is about to decide the future of online speech

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Re: The Supreme Court is about to decide the future of online speech

#51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair enough. > was offering a framework within which the details can be fleshed out So the framework is revoking § 230 for large websites that moderate user content. Except providing a safe harbor for removing illegal stuff. Also off topic. Presumably also spam. What does that actually do except buy every lawyer a ranch? We haven’t actually drawn the line between censorship and moderation. And I’m arguing we can’t; t…

>What does that actually do except buy every lawyer a ranch? We haven’t actually drawn the line between censorship and moderation. And I’m arguing we can’t; there isn’t one. Where we draw the line we do so by identity; who is speaking or doing the moderating/censorship. In broad strokes the line is simple: moderation is ensuring content stays on topic, censorship is limiting the topic. In practice it gets thorny. But…

> I see nothing inherently contradictory or impossible about any of this.

Maybe neither contradictory nor impossible, but I would still argue it's bad policy to slap a label on a private company stating they're a de facto public square, when in reality all they've done is the best job at attracting users.

Re: The Supreme Court is about to decide the future of online speech

#52
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> public squares and should be treated as such. What does this mean?

It means the principles that constrain how governments engage with society (e.g. free speech in the public square) should also constrain how these new government-sized institutions engage with society. We've got to the point where so much of governance is pushed off to the private sector that these entities should be bound by the same rules. E.g. private companies shouldn't be able to do widespread content scanning o…

> It means the principles that constrain how governments engage with society (e.g. free speech in the public square) should also constrain how these new government-sized institutions engage with society

I think you're missing the distinction between public and private entities.

We constrain governments because they have a defacto monoploy by law and by definition. This means there are no alternatives. Additionally, our government is granted power through its citizens, not vise versa. Rights are negative meaning the government doesn't let us say what we want, the government isn't allowed to prevent us from saying what we want.

The fact that a company is large in employees or has many users shouldn't impact its ability to moderate. Forcing private companies to not moderate in the name of the public good would be a 5A violation: seizure of private property for public use. It is different if you uniformly rescind 230, but then you kill all third party commentary on the web in general. Look at Craigslist's response to fosta/sosta, for example.

> e.g. private companies shouldn't be able to do widespread content scanning of private data that would be illegal for the government to

The government isn't allowed to do this because the Constitution forbids it. Private companies can only get your data if you transact with them.

That transact line is usually blured on the web, but there are defensive measures one can take to help evade them. The simplest of them is to choose not to use a business or service.

I don't have a meta account. I don't have a tiktok or X. In fact, I have a HN, lobsters, and Blur Dwarf account. That's it. So easy to opt out of what concerns you. Additionally, I run both clearnet domains and hidden services. While what I say on the clearnet may get me kicked off a domain registrar, that can't happen on the government-invented-and-implemented tor.

Re: The Supreme Court is about to decide the future of online speech

#53

I don't think they should be able to have it both ways. Social media companies have speech? If they have speech then why aren't they liable for that speech?

This Supreme Court case is about whether social media sites can be forced to host users' speech, not whether the sites are liable for the users' speech. On the latter subject though... > I don't think they should be able to have it both ways. > Social media companies have speech? If they have speech then why aren't they liable for that speech? The state governments trying hold social media sites liable for users' har…

I made two serious mistakes. Both my parent comment and 2OEH8eoCRo0's grandparent comment conflated the speech of the users (the actual posts) and the speech of the social media sites (the moderation decisions, and anything the company workers write while representing the company). Additionally, I incorrectly believed that the Florida and Texas laws were only about forcing social media sites to host speech, even though the case also involves questions of liability for users' speech. (However, the Florida and Texas laws are not like KOSA, which focuses on the supposed harm caused by the actual social media posts.)

I read an article [1] that cleared up my confusion about which speech is third-party and which speech is first-party. The grandparent comment by 2OEH8eoCRo0 said this:

> I don't think they should be able to have it both ways.

> Social media companies have speech? If they have speech then why aren't they liable for that speech?

There are "both ways" because there are two different kinds of speech at issue. The first kind of speech is the posts themselves, the content of which were written by users. The second kind of speech is what the social media website does with the post (boosts, downranks, deletes, marks with tags, bans the user of, etc.). (The second kind also includes whatever else someone representing the company writes, but that's not relevant to the confusion about Section 230.) Section 230 declares that the social media site cannot be held liable for the first kind of speech. Social media sites can still be held liable for the second kind of speech. Any harm caused by the very content of the post is actually harm caused by the first kind of speech, even if the social media site boosted the post; holding the social media company liable for boosting such a post would violate the social media company's First Amendment right to moderate. The right to moderate comes from the First Amendment, not from Section 230.

Suppose that I make a post about eating disorders on social media. The social media site boosts my post. Some kid sees it and later develops an eating disorder (correlation, with the question of causation to be decided in court). The parent sues the social media site and argues that the social media site should be liable because the social media site boosted the post.

Scenario 1. If Section 230 didn't exist, then the social media company would have to go through the entire court process. The social media site argues that "First, social media websites have a First Amendment right to moderate. Second, our moderators could not be expected to foresee that a mere discussion of eating disorders would cause more harm than help. Third, the liability should fall on the user who posted the speech". The social media company loses a lot of money, but the court rules that the social media company was not liable for the post.

Scenario 2. Since Section 230 does exist, then the social media company can say, "This lawsuit attempts to hold someone online liable for distributing speech made by someone else. Section 230 says that this liability will not exist." The court declares that the social media company cannot be held liable for the post, and dismisses the case early.

Either way, the social media company would not be liable. But Section 230 is still necessary to prevent social media companies from being overwhelmed with having to go through entire court cases. The parent could sue me. There's still no guarantee that I would be held liable for the specific example post I came up with. (And obviously, there can be no third-party liability on the social media website if the court in Scenario 1 decides that there would be no first-party liability on me.)

[1] https://www.techdirt.com/2024/03/01/we-cant-have-serious-dis...

Re: The Supreme Court is about to decide the future of online speech

#54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It means the principles that constrain how governments engage with society (e.g. free speech in the public square) should also constrain how these new government-sized institutions engage with society. We've got to the point where so much of governance is pushed off to the private sector that these entities should be bound by the same rules. E.g. private companies shouldn't be able to do widespread content scanning o…

> It means the principles that constrain how governments engage with society (e.g. free speech in the public square) should also constrain how these new government-sized institutions engage with society I think you're missing the distinction between public and private entities. We constrain governments because they have a defacto monoploy by law and by definition. This means there are no alternatives. Additionally, o…

These are all choices we make. We can simply make different choices. Nothing you've said argues against making choices that are more in line with our ideals given the reality of the size and power that modern corporations have over our social lives.
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