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The lifespan of large appliances is shrinking

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Re: The lifespan of large appliances is shrinking

#51

Post by iio7 »

I have a friend who works in production. I cannot remember exactly what his education is, but it's a type of engineer. If you want something produced that you have invented, he can get it done.

He has mentioned that they have software that can calculate the average lifespan of the finished product by entering the different components that goes into the product (like this piece has this amount of iron, this amount of tin, etc).

Based upon this the software can calculate the lifespan very precisely and determine if they have made it "too good". If it's too good the quality is decreased on purpose in order to reduce the lifespan such that people will buy more. Other testing goes into the equation as well, but enough data has been collected over the years that it can be calculated/simulated.

Re: The lifespan of large appliances is shrinking

#52

Post by jellicle »

csa wrote: post #36
godzillabrennus wrote: post #2

Seems like a good time to start an appliance business.

Very good appliances that last a long time currently exist. They are just not at the price point that many/most folks prefer to pay.

If there exists a company that makes appliances that are very expensive and that last a long time, a company with a real reputation for quality, then it is extremely profitable for that company to be purchased by a hedge fund that cuts quality by 90%, raises prices by 10%, and just rides that train into the ground over the next 20 years.

Re: The lifespan of large appliances is shrinking

#53

Post by quatrefoil »

giantg2 wrote: post #29
quatrefoil wrote: post #22

I mean, it's cool to pin it on manufacturers trying to increase margins, or on "planned obsolescence" - but a lot of it is our doing. We're willingly enabling it. There are manufacturers that make simple and serviceable appliances; for example, most Frigidaire fridges don't have cool-looking displays, wifi connectivity, and other bells and whistles. But how many Frigidaire products are sold every year, compared to LG…

"but many technicians refuse to work on them due to poor design and poor availability of parts. So when they break after 2-5 years," That's the point - only junk fridges would need to be worked on in the first 5 years. I know if a freezer from the 80s and a fridge from the 60s that have never seen a technician in their lives. At this rate, that one from the 60s will probably have a longer lifespan than I will.

Appliance repairmen existed in the 1980s, we probably had more of them per capita than we do now, and they had their hands full. The idea that it's often easier to toss out an appliance than to repair it is a newer trend...

Re: The lifespan of large appliances is shrinking

#54

Post by 2143 »

lettergram wrote: post #13

It might be an unpopular opinion, but globalization did this — the consolidation and exportation of manufacturing out of the west has decimated manufacturing capabilities in the countries. My father was a tool maker (top of his profession, top shop at Molex for a time). He and everyone he knew had such pride in their work. They also knew who would use their products. They cared about the quality and worked hard to de…

> To contrast, the owner of molex at one point heard my dad needed a surgery. He came down on the shop floor, called him over and sent my dad (and our family) to the Mayo Clinic for 2 weeks to have the surgery done (all expenses paid).

I don't know how often this happens in Western mega corporations (which is probably why you're surprised).

And you obviously haven't been to Japan. Yes, long hours, but your employer takes care of most aspects of your life. Healthcare, apartment, marriage, your kids education, everything. See this article by patio11: https://www.kalzumeus.com/2014/11/07/doing-business-in-japan...

In the non-crappy businesses in India other people — coworkers, bosses, etc — taking care of you is routine. And — okay this is a terrible example — in the unfortunate situation that somebody dies, for instance, trust me, random people just help the family with funeral and stuff like that.

What I'm trying to say is this: the rest of the world isn't filled with morons and cattle.

Oh and by the way, across the world people want quality products. Even people from — gasp — the global South. We too want our fridges and washing machines and TVs and cars and everything else to last forever.

Re: The lifespan of large appliances is shrinking

#56

Post by fragmede »

fshbbdssbbgdd wrote: post #20
martinky24 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh? Cars are lasting, on average, longer than they ever have.

Is there a good source of data on this? On the one hand, I could believe that newer cars have better engineering which makes many components more reliable. On the other hand, crumple zones and expensive bodywork mean that modern cars are Fabregé eggs that can be easily totaled in minor accidents. And increases in the complexity and scope of what cars do can increase the cost of maintenance and make them go obsolete f…

Not to mention that whole pandemic thing and its effect on the economy. People who weren't allowed to work for a couple of years aren't going to be able to afford newer cars.

Re: The lifespan of large appliances is shrinking

#57

Post by lettergram »

2143 wrote: post #54
lettergram wrote: post #13

It might be an unpopular opinion, but globalization did this — the consolidation and exportation of manufacturing out of the west has decimated manufacturing capabilities in the countries. My father was a tool maker (top of his profession, top shop at Molex for a time). He and everyone he knew had such pride in their work. They also knew who would use their products. They cared about the quality and worked hard to de…

> To contrast, the owner of molex at one point heard my dad needed a surgery. He came down on the shop floor, called him over and sent my dad (and our family) to the Mayo Clinic for 2 weeks to have the surgery done (all expenses paid). I don't know how often this happens in Western mega corporations (which is probably why you're surprised). And you obviously haven't been to Japan. Yes, long hours, but your employer t…

I don't think the rest of the world is filled with morons haha. The rest of the world is trying to improve their lives.

However, I think you missed part of what I was saying, which patio11 actually touches on.

The west, particularly America, is individualistic & meritocratic. This leads to a lot of self-interest & overall refines the system as a whole. It'll also spur competition in a free-market, as people leave to start competitors. Etc. This is in contrast to "salary men" in Japan.

When you have globalization, you have:

(1) The cheapest possible workforce will be used and will drive out competitors who have higher expenses (the west does)

(2) Those goods are then exported and corners can be cut because there's little direct risk.

(3) The companies themselves have no employees where they're selling their goods, so there's little feedback (besides profit) to employers.

(4) Innovation & competition is dramatically reduced. To compete you effective need a very cheap workforce & sell below the larger players (who already have scale).

The ultimate result ends up being, poorer & cheaper quality products, made by people who don't use the products. This actually increases the profit margin to corporations. Yet, it's ultimately a race to the bottom at that point. Anyone who attempts to produce a higher quality product has to be significantly more expensive, and often fails in the market. It's why most "high quality" brands have slowly been bought out by the more profitable (low cost) players, then their brand names are used like a skin suit (as their quality decreases).

Re: The lifespan of large appliances is shrinking

#58

Post by ccorcos »

Aside from the typical planned obsolescence for the purpose of recurring revenue, I found this particular example very interesting: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32462954

It’s classic greenwashing - a more efficient fridge is obviously better, right? Except they use extremely thin oil so it dies in a few years.

Another interesting narrative is how Segway shut down the production of their scooter because they were so well made that they weren’t selling enough! https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23621279

It’s a weird world and I wish I could just have my cake and eat it too.

Re: The lifespan of large appliances is shrinking

#60

Post by jacknews »

Freedom2 wrote: post #59

This is why I manufacture a lot of my own appliances these days. The parts are all available online, and I trust my engineering moreso than manufacturers these days.

Fridges and washing machines and so on?

Have you documented any of the builds?

I would be very interested in open-source plans like this, and joining (or helping form) a community around the idea of appliances built to last, or more importantly, using modular standard parts and designed for repair.

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