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Israel's economy shrinks more than expected on Gaza war

bbc.com

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Re: Israel's economy shrinks more than expected on Gaza war

#51

Post by tptacek »

dtornabene wrote: post #50
tptacek wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They also call a lot of things antisemitic because they are antisemitic. The notion that Israel is an ethnically Euro-American colony is antisemitic (and racist), erasing the MENA origins of a plurality of its citizens. The notion that Jewish Americans are untrustworthy interlocutors because they have duel loyalties is antisemitic. Calls to "decolonize" Israel and to "globalize the Intifadah" are straightforward appe…

many many people can and do and correctly deny that "many critics of Israel" "weaponize antisemitism against Israel". Lots of weasel words on that post! Which just so happen to themselves de-legitimize very necessary criticism of both Zionism writ large and Israel itself! And calls to "globalize the Intifadah" are overwhelming about a popular revolution you know nothing about but love to post about with some very rac…

Well, they have a losing argument, because it's easy to present clear evidence of antisemitism delivered by Palestinian advocates (just like it's easy to present Kahanist rhetoric from Israeli advocates). I gave an undeniable specific example from Harvard's faculty SJP. There is stuff being said that is indefensible, and angrily denying it isn't going to get you anywhere; it just discredits your cause.

Re: Israel's economy shrinks more than expected on Gaza war

#52

Post by enterprise_cog »

tptacek wrote: post #40
enterprise_cog wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Zionists benefit from antisemitism. It furthers the idea that Jews are only safe in Israel. It’s part of the reason they call everything antisemitism, it scares the diaspora and justifies the existence of Israel.

They also call a lot of things antisemitic because they are antisemitic. The notion that Israel is an ethnically Euro-American colony is antisemitic (and racist), erasing the MENA origins of a plurality of its citizens. The notion that Jewish Americans are untrustworthy interlocutors because they have duel loyalties is antisemitic. Calls to "decolonize" Israel and to "globalize the Intifadah" are straightforward appe…

For context, here is the newsletter that Harvard image was from: https://www.crmvet.org/docs/sv/6707_sncc_news-r.pdf (page 4)

Seems to me, given the text, that the image was depicting the hand as Israel. Poor choice imo but doesn’t reek of overt antisemitism.

Re: Israel's economy shrinks more than expected on Gaza war

#53

Post by tptacek »

enterprise_cog wrote: post #52
tptacek wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They also call a lot of things antisemitic because they are antisemitic. The notion that Israel is an ethnically Euro-American colony is antisemitic (and racist), erasing the MENA origins of a plurality of its citizens. The notion that Jewish Americans are untrustworthy interlocutors because they have duel loyalties is antisemitic. Calls to "decolonize" Israel and to "globalize the Intifadah" are straightforward appe…

For context, here is the newsletter that Harvard image was from: https://www.crmvet.org/docs/sv/6707_sncc_news-r.pdf (page 4) Seems to me, given the text, that the image was depicting the hand as Israel. Poor choice imo but doesn’t reek of overt antisemitism.

You're now at the point of sticking up for something even SJP has disavowed. And this isn't like my best example, it's just one fresh in my mind because it happened 2 days ago. Further, the idea that any symbol of Judaism is properly understood as support for Israel is itself prima facie antisemitic!

Re: Israel's economy shrinks more than expected on Gaza war

#54

Post by [deleted] »

tptacek wrote: post #51
dtornabene wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

many many people can and do and correctly deny that "many critics of Israel" "weaponize antisemitism against Israel". Lots of weasel words on that post! Which just so happen to themselves de-legitimize very necessary criticism of both Zionism writ large and Israel itself! And calls to "globalize the Intifadah" are overwhelming about a popular revolution you know nothing about but love to post about with some very rac…

Well, they have a losing argument, because it's easy to present clear evidence of antisemitism delivered by Palestinian advocates (just like it's easy to present Kahanist rhetoric from Israeli advocates). I gave an undeniable specific example from Harvard's faculty SJP. There is stuff being said that is indefensible, and angrily denying it isn't going to get you anywhere; it just discredits your cause.

[deleted]

Re: Israel's economy shrinks more than expected on Gaza war

#55

Post by enterprise_cog »

tptacek wrote: post #53
enterprise_cog wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For context, here is the newsletter that Harvard image was from: https://www.crmvet.org/docs/sv/6707_sncc_news-r.pdf (page 4) Seems to me, given the text, that the image was depicting the hand as Israel. Poor choice imo but doesn’t reek of overt antisemitism.

You're now at the point of sticking up for something even SJP has disavowed. And this isn't like my best example, it's just one fresh in my mind because it happened 2 days ago. Further, the idea that any symbol of Judaism is properly understood as support for Israel is itself prima facie antisemitic!

Posting context isn’t “sticking up” for it, unless you decide to interpret it less than charitably.

The Star of David is on Israel’s flag and the official adopted symbol of Zionism.. The entire article was about Israel and Zionists. That you claim it is antisemitic is just another example of what I mentioned.

Re: Israel's economy shrinks more than expected on Gaza war

#56

Post by dtornabene »

tptacek wrote: post #51
dtornabene wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

many many people can and do and correctly deny that "many critics of Israel" "weaponize antisemitism against Israel". Lots of weasel words on that post! Which just so happen to themselves de-legitimize very necessary criticism of both Zionism writ large and Israel itself! And calls to "globalize the Intifadah" are overwhelming about a popular revolution you know nothing about but love to post about with some very rac…

Well, they have a losing argument, because it's easy to present clear evidence of antisemitism delivered by Palestinian advocates (just like it's easy to present Kahanist rhetoric from Israeli advocates). I gave an undeniable specific example from Harvard's faculty SJP. There is stuff being said that is indefensible, and angrily denying it isn't going to get you anywhere; it just discredits your cause.

I would suggest maybe not lecturing others on how to "help the cause" from a ycombinator thread in which you described the Intifada, a popular uprising that was nonviolent for years, including tax resistance and boycotts, as a dyed-in-the-wool-this-is-what-it-is "call to murder civilians". I think you either don't care or don't realize how much you don't know and are absolutely trotting out wide generalizations yourself that are the mirror image of antisemitism, directed at Palestinians. The Kahanist comparison is also an incredibly poor one given that a literal Kahanist (Ben-Gvir), who is on video waving the stolen hood ornament of Rabin's car, saying "we can get to Rabin", is now the minister in charge of national security and has handed out thousands of rifles to settlers, independent of the militia he was given by Netanyahu to not bring down the far right coalition. Seems a bit more important to me than clucking about a harvard faculty advisor to a student group, and especially wrapping that in "well it only hurts your side" message board rhetoric! Israeli soldiers fired on crowds queuing for food from aid trucks yesterday, again. Every single hospital in Gaza has been bombed with some utterly destroyed. You are welcome to snipe in these threads as much as you want but this is a thing you are pretty clearly out of your depth on and should devote some time, which I know you are able to do, to following up. That is simply the most charitable way I can put it.

Re: Israel's economy shrinks more than expected on Gaza war

#57

Post by tptacek »

dtornabene wrote: post #56
tptacek wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, they have a losing argument, because it's easy to present clear evidence of antisemitism delivered by Palestinian advocates (just like it's easy to present Kahanist rhetoric from Israeli advocates). I gave an undeniable specific example from Harvard's faculty SJP. There is stuff being said that is indefensible, and angrily denying it isn't going to get you anywhere; it just discredits your cause.

I would suggest maybe not lecturing others on how to "help the cause" from a ycombinator thread in which you described the Intifada, a popular uprising that was nonviolent for years , including tax resistance and boycotts, as a dyed-in-the-wool-this-is-what-it-is "call to murder civilians". I think you either don't care or don't realize how much you don't know and are absolutely trotting out wide generalizations your…

I agree that Ben-Gvir is a Kahanist (and a monster) and have said as much on HN. I don't know who you're arguing with here, but I get the sense that it probably isn't me. If you are, it appears to be your claim that any critique of Palestinian activism, in any form that it or the criticism takes, equates to support for Israel. No.

Re: Israel's economy shrinks more than expected on Gaza war

#58

Post by dtornabene »

tptacek wrote: post #57
dtornabene wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would suggest maybe not lecturing others on how to "help the cause" from a ycombinator thread in which you described the Intifada, a popular uprising that was nonviolent for years , including tax resistance and boycotts, as a dyed-in-the-wool-this-is-what-it-is "call to murder civilians". I think you either don't care or don't realize how much you don't know and are absolutely trotting out wide generalizations your…

I agree that Ben-Gvir is a Kahanist (and a monster) and have said as much on HN. I don't know who you're arguing with here, but I get the sense that it probably isn't me. If you are, it appears to be your claim that any critique of Palestinian activism, in any form that it or the criticism takes, equates to support for Israel. No.

No, I am speaking directly to your castigation of "calls to globalize the Intifada". So, don't do that Tom. Its right there in my thread, in both of my comments. I could go back and find other examples from other threads in the last couple of months, but I'm pretty clearly talking about this thread, right here.

Edit: Can't reply to you for some reason, and no, you don't know me, though we have met, and corresponded via email a few times, but attempting to make my reply about "being angry" is really gross dude. I responded substantively to both of your comments and your reply appears to be to simply ignore that; so be it!

Re: Israel's economy shrinks more than expected on Gaza war

#59

Post by tptacek »

dtornabene wrote: post #58
tptacek wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that Ben-Gvir is a Kahanist (and a monster) and have said as much on HN. I don't know who you're arguing with here, but I get the sense that it probably isn't me. If you are, it appears to be your claim that any critique of Palestinian activism, in any form that it or the criticism takes, equates to support for Israel. No.

No, I am speaking directly to your castigation of "calls to globalize the Intifada". So, don't do that Tom. Its right there in my thread, in both of my comments. I could go back and find other examples from other threads in the last couple of months, but I'm pretty clearly talking about this thread, right here. Edit: Can't reply to you for some reason, and no, you don't know me, though we have met, and corresponded v…

I get that you're angry, but I don't know you, I'm not angry at you, and my name is Thomas.
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