PWAs wont replace native iOS apps • Hacker News Board

Re: PWAs wont replace native iOS apps

#51

Post by bbor » Thu, Feb 15, 2024, 8:25 PM UTC

PaulHoule wrote: post #37

BandButcher wrote: post #6

Understandable... PWAs are ultimately an alternative path from traditional mobile apps which will take away money from apple/google. But as a web dev community we need to stand firm and build PWAs regardless. If we treat pwas on iOS like we did Internet explorer (i.e. giving it special attention and hack solutions as opposed to just not developing for it) we will lose the fight. I suggest you call out the issues with…

Can't we just give up on the "Progressive" branding and just say we are making Web Apps? There are just so many things that make "PWA" a bad smell. I mean, have you ever asked a user if they need more spam spamifications in their life? (Yeah, your app does and 95% say "hell no") Personally I find it much easier to find web sites with Safari (until last week I would hit "1" and Safari would automatically show me my RS…

  Yeah, your app does and 95% say "hell no"

For some types of apps, particularly social media ones, the only path forward is those 5% of users that like your app enough to “commit”. And I think that’s what PWAs offer on a practical level — a way to commit to a website and keep it remindable. To say the least your typing-over-tapping preference is not universal, but even so I think both mobile OSs have type-to-search integrated natively now. So I think you can see why it’s a nice reminder, for those people.

Plus, “progressive web app” tells a (well informed) user “this website can use your camera and gyroscope and GPS and such”.

Plus plus, and I think this is the most important: it’s a fun community and a great resume term. It’s no fun to just be a “web developer”, you’ve gotta be a progressive, web3, 3D, local-first, no-js, all-js web developer ;)

Re: PWAs wont replace native iOS apps

#52

Post by sccxy » Thu, Feb 15, 2024, 8:25 PM UTC

andix wrote: post #32

PWAs will only replace native apps when the operating systems support them properly. Let's see how the European Union moves forward with the Digital Markets Act. Let's see if a regulation like that can tame Apple, or if Apple keeps finding loop holes to not fully comply in the intended way (to liberate the European market from oligopolist gate keeping companies). If it works there might be a further revision that for…

If your free app will get popular with new rules then your free app will cost a lot for a developer.

For example 2.5M installs/updates a year will cost you Total monthly fees $ 67,935

https://developer.apple.com/support/fee-calculator-for-apps-...

Re: PWAs wont replace native iOS apps

#53

Post by andix » Thu, Feb 15, 2024, 8:28 PM UTC

BandButcher wrote: post #6

Understandable... PWAs are ultimately an alternative path from traditional mobile apps which will take away money from apple/google. But as a web dev community we need to stand firm and build PWAs regardless. If we treat pwas on iOS like we did Internet explorer (i.e. giving it special attention and hack solutions as opposed to just not developing for it) we will lose the fight. I suggest you call out the issues with…

This business model can only be broken via regulations from another country. The European Union is on it right now, and their plans give a little bit of hope.

Apple/Google will never voluntarily give up their stores. And it's also not reasonable to think that the US will regulate it. Those stores bring a lot of money from all around the world into the US. It would be crazy from an US perspective to stop them doing this. Those profits can be taxed without taking away any money from their citizens. So basically free tax money.

Re: PWAs wont replace native iOS apps

#54

Post by PaulHoule » Thu, Feb 15, 2024, 8:28 PM UTC

bbor wrote: post #51

PaulHoule wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't we just give up on the "Progressive" branding and just say we are making Web Apps? There are just so many things that make "PWA" a bad smell. I mean, have you ever asked a user if they need more spam spamifications in their life? (Yeah, your app does and 95% say "hell no") Personally I find it much easier to find web sites with Safari (until last week I would hit "1" and Safari would automatically show me my RS…

Yeah, your app does and 95% say "hell no" For some types of apps, particularly social media ones, the only path forward is those 5% of users that like your app enough to “commit”. And I think that’s what PWAs offer on a practical level — a way to commit to a website and keep it remindable. To say the least your typing-over-tapping preference is not universal, but even so I think both mobile OSs have type-to-search in…

I make apps with A-Frame that use the gyroscope and all that and I wouldn't call them "progressive". My goal is to give a "it just works" experience and labels don't help with that.

Re: PWAs wont replace native iOS apps

#55

Post by smoldesu » Thu, Feb 15, 2024, 8:30 PM UTC

palata wrote: post #34

In my opinion, it is always the same "cross-platform" discussion. If you hire an iOS/Android mobile dev to write a native iOS/Android app, it means that you hire someone specialized in apps for mobiles . The whole point of a cross-platform framework is the hope that it won't need the specialization: "any web dev can now write a mobile app". But every cross-platform framework has the same problem: platforms are differ…

> If PWAs win, it will just mean that the users got worse apps

If PWAs win, it will be because native apps failed. Android and MacOS both have an enormous community of open source native apps that are more private, functional and accountable than their commercial alternatives. So far, Apple hasn't opened the floodgate for that on iOS. As a result, the interest in sideloading things has been relegated to the most-open part of the OS; the browser. It's not surprising at all.

Apple could be enabling a Cambrian explosion of open iPhone apps and killing the case for dinky webapps overnight. Their motivation not to is rooted in a company-wide strategy to make more service revenue.

Re: PWAs wont replace native iOS apps

#56

Post by andix » Thu, Feb 15, 2024, 8:30 PM UTC

sccxy wrote: post #52

andix wrote: post #32

PWAs will only replace native apps when the operating systems support them properly. Let's see how the European Union moves forward with the Digital Markets Act. Let's see if a regulation like that can tame Apple, or if Apple keeps finding loop holes to not fully comply in the intended way (to liberate the European market from oligopolist gate keeping companies). If it works there might be a further revision that for…

If your free app will get popular with new rules then your free app will cost a lot for a developer. For example 2.5M installs/updates a year will cost you Total monthly fees $ 67,935 https://developer.apple.com/support/fee-calculator-for-apps-...

It looks like Apple found a loop hole. I don’t think this loop hole will stay open for long.

Edit: I really think that we will soon get an addendum to this law that will limit those fees. In a similar way mobile phone roaming fees got regulated.

Re: PWAs wont replace native iOS apps

#57

Post by freedomben » Thu, Feb 15, 2024, 8:34 PM UTC

shuckles wrote: post #44

freedomben wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm guessing they were only doing the little they did for PWAs to stave off anti-trust attention by being able to say "we're not gatekeepers. You can use the web," but now that the EU forced them allow alternative app stores, they don't want anybody using PWAs and they have no need for them anymore, so they're killing them.

Apple announced web apps on macOS as keynote feature last year where they have no anti-trust scrutiny. This theory has holes.

macOS seems like a very different beast than iOS. I don't think you can draw conclusions from that any more than you could conclude that on iOS you can sideload because Apple allows that on macOS.

Re: PWAs wont replace native iOS apps

#58

Post by palata » Thu, Feb 15, 2024, 8:35 PM UTC

smoldesu wrote: post #55

palata wrote: post #34

In my opinion, it is always the same "cross-platform" discussion. If you hire an iOS/Android mobile dev to write a native iOS/Android app, it means that you hire someone specialized in apps for mobiles . The whole point of a cross-platform framework is the hope that it won't need the specialization: "any web dev can now write a mobile app". But every cross-platform framework has the same problem: platforms are differ…

> If PWAs win, it will just mean that the users got worse apps If PWAs win, it will be because native apps failed. Android and MacOS both have an enormous community of open source native apps that are more private, functional and accountable than their commercial alternatives. So far, Apple hasn't opened the floodgate for that on iOS. As a result, the interest in sideloading things has been relegated to the most-open…

> If PWAs win, it will be because native apps failed.

Or because the vast majority of people who "write code that runs on mobile phones" know web technologies and not the mobile ones. Web programming is simply more accessible.

The thing is, "more" is not always "better".

Re: PWAs wont replace native iOS apps

#59

Post by brailsafe » Thu, Feb 15, 2024, 8:35 PM UTC

BandButcher wrote: post #6

Understandable... PWAs are ultimately an alternative path from traditional mobile apps which will take away money from apple/google. But as a web dev community we need to stand firm and build PWAs regardless. If we treat pwas on iOS like we did Internet explorer (i.e. giving it special attention and hack solutions as opposed to just not developing for it) we will lose the fight. I suggest you call out the issues with…

I agree with the sentiment, but building for IE was not just an interesting and hacky technical challenge, IE was basically the platform.

Re: PWAs wont replace native iOS apps

#60

Post by jwells89 » Thu, Feb 15, 2024, 8:39 PM UTC

BandButcher wrote: post #6

Understandable... PWAs are ultimately an alternative path from traditional mobile apps which will take away money from apple/google. But as a web dev community we need to stand firm and build PWAs regardless. If we treat pwas on iOS like we did Internet explorer (i.e. giving it special attention and hack solutions as opposed to just not developing for it) we will lose the fight. I suggest you call out the issues with…

If I see a “best viewed in” badge I’m very likely to go find an alternative, regardless of the platform or browser I’m using. Those badges would best remain a vestige of the IE-Netscape era.