Earlier quoted context omitted.
Probably the best thing for the young chimpanzees is to be out of the house most of the time, be put into a bunch of sports/programs. At that age they start to resent their parents, and they learn a lot more when they're outside doing stuff.
Forcing them to be out of the house is a great way to ensure they never have the time to practice their expressed interest in programming that can eventually lead to a lucrative career.
Juvenile great apes love to tease and annoy their elders, study finds
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Re: Juvenile great apes love to tease and annoy their elders, study finds
#52> From 75 hours of footage taken at San Diego and Leipzig zoos, scientists documented 142 clear instances of great apes teasing their compadres Less than 2 teases per hour! I wish some juvenile homo sapiens I know were that well behaved.
Game theory tells us the most effective strategy is matching their energy until they shift modalities. Sometimes, adults deny this truth to their own detriment because they’re “smart” or “civilized”.
What game is being played? What are the rewards for winning?
Re: Juvenile great apes love to tease and annoy their elders, study finds
#53First, they annoy the elders. Then when they grow up to be teenagers, they live in a cave and communicate mostly through grunting. I am at this phase with my children and I make inhumane efforts not to react and let it flow. I hope that when their brain actually fires up when they are 25 or 30, they will be nice kids who realize what their parents when through to raise them. Please comment only to confirm this, I am…
>when their brain actually fires up when they are 25 or 30 Their brain fires up at about 14, and soon starts to figure out that life is actually a costume party, so they spend the next decade in their cave pondering about it while making up their costume, naturally grunting at you while you annoy them with your mundane down-to-earth already-costumed person considerations. Then at 25 or 30 their costume is ready and t…
Re: Juvenile great apes love to tease and annoy their elders, study finds
#54First, they annoy the elders. Then when they grow up to be teenagers, they live in a cave and communicate mostly through grunting. I am at this phase with my children and I make inhumane efforts not to react and let it flow. I hope that when their brain actually fires up when they are 25 or 30, they will be nice kids who realize what their parents when through to raise them. Please comment only to confirm this, I am…
I don't know the whole 25 thing seems to be just mainly be something like a meme. You go out and you can meet extremely personable, social, and polite, teens all the time. You can also find the grunters. Sometimes it's just personality. Sometimes it's dealing with puberty. Sometimes it's genuflecting against authority. As long as you support them, give them guidance in a respectful way, and involve yourself in their…
It comes from the same place "scientific" racism did. It's an excuse to not even bother trying because "muh hormones".
Adult initiation rituals tend to be 13-14 in every pre-industrial society (current and historic) because that's when it happens biologically; it is therefore not a surprise, in Western countries where it's delayed by a decade, that the people from 14-25 are not developing correctly.
The first step to fixing this is to acknowledge the problem exists.
Re: Juvenile great apes love to tease and annoy their elders, study finds
#55First, they annoy the elders. Then when they grow up to be teenagers, they live in a cave and communicate mostly through grunting. I am at this phase with my children and I make inhumane efforts not to react and let it flow. I hope that when their brain actually fires up when they are 25 or 30, they will be nice kids who realize what their parents when through to raise them. Please comment only to confirm this, I am…
I don't know the whole 25 thing seems to be just mainly be something like a meme. You go out and you can meet extremely personable, social, and polite, teens all the time. You can also find the grunters. Sometimes it's just personality. Sometimes it's dealing with puberty. Sometimes it's genuflecting against authority. As long as you support them, give them guidance in a respectful way, and involve yourself in their…
They learn how to not upset Adults (and how to effectively upset them too), how to be pleasing, how to stay out of trouble, how to utterly lie and not get caught. Teens are advanced children in this respect.
Now you might think you are too smart to be fooled, and that of course is your downfall (didn't you read in school about hubris and arrogance?). The kids are humans, it is very high stakes for them and they study and hone every technique. For them it is their most productive skill. You are massivly outgunned. Adult.
You might think you are good-willed and trustworthy, but you are inescapably an Adult. You have that unchecked power and have been corrupted by it. Even if you are truly a friend now you can switch on that power in a moment if something bothers you, at your whim, by your mood. It's like petting an unrestrained lion; no matter how calm and playful it seems, licking you, nuzzling you, purring ... you are paying very close attention and tailoring every move to its pleasure. What if something scares it?
I work to maintain great empathy for children's position (hard to do, because I am corrupted by unchecked power). When interacting, I keep my mouth shut - a whispered syllable dominates the conversation, even if to provoke resistance. I listen attentively: are they speaking with their own voice, for their own cause, of their own perspective? A good signal is if it's too pleasing, if it fits so beautifully and joyfully in my beliefs, relieving all tension - here is a child who understands! Lol. Other people, especially with the vastly different experience of a different generation and of childhood, will have very different ideas and perspectives, many hard to understand or uncomfortable. Just think what you sound like to them.
When kids do that pleasing thing, what response do you see? You see Adults compliment them - 'what fine children!' The Adults are suckers, and if you think back to your teenage years, you know it. Adults are so easy.
There's another issue here. I was once at a casual Adult dinner party and a couple had brought their only child, a 13 year old. The child, as far as I could tell, was the Adults' best friend and they said as much. I tried engaging the child away from their parents and give them some space to be themselves, to be valued as themselves. They said they wanted to be there, with Adults (lol), because 'who wants to hang out with 13 year olds?' So truly heartbreaking.
Re: Juvenile great apes love to tease and annoy their elders, study finds
#56Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't know the whole 25 thing seems to be just mainly be something like a meme. You go out and you can meet extremely personable, social, and polite, teens all the time. You can also find the grunters. Sometimes it's just personality. Sometimes it's dealing with puberty. Sometimes it's genuflecting against authority. As long as you support them, give them guidance in a respectful way, and involve yourself in their…
>the whole 25 thing seems to be just mainly be something like a meme It comes from the same place "scientific" racism did. It's an excuse to not even bother trying because "muh hormones". Adult initiation rituals tend to be 13-14 in every pre-industrial society (current and historic) because that's when it happens biologically; it is therefore not a surprise, in Western countries where it's delayed by a decade, that…
I don't know how to define 'correctly' here, but in politically and economically advanced countries they develop in much more healthy and productive ways. People who are forced to be adults at 15 often never get a chance to mature.
Re: Juvenile great apes love to tease and annoy their elders, study finds
#57Earlier quoted context omitted.
Game theory tells us the most effective strategy is matching their energy until they shift modalities. Sometimes, adults deny this truth to their own detriment because they’re “smart” or “civilized”.
>Game theory tells us What game is being played? What are the rewards for winning?
Re: Juvenile great apes love to tease and annoy their elders, study finds
#58Earlier quoted context omitted.
Iterated prisoner’s dilemma. The optimal strategy is signaling alliance (to receptive partners); after that, it’s reciprocating behavior. Teenagers (and many adults) aren’t willing to ally, so we’re left with reciprocating. Until they accept being allies is a good idea.
Game theory does not tell us that tit for tat is generally optimal. It tells us that it is optimal for a specific game with specific rules and payouts. It is a mistake to try to translate that to using a tit for tat strategy in general, where the rules and payouts are usually quite different.
Re: Juvenile great apes love to tease and annoy their elders, study finds
#59Earlier quoted context omitted.
Forcing them to be out of the house is a great way to ensure they never have the time to practice their expressed interest in programming that can eventually lead to a lucrative career.
I’ve tried to encourage that many times… doesn’t seem to be taking.
Re: Juvenile great apes love to tease and annoy their elders, study finds
#60Earlier quoted context omitted.
Game theory does not tell us that tit for tat is generally optimal. It tells us that it is optimal for a specific game with specific rules and payouts. It is a mistake to try to translate that to using a tit for tat strategy in general, where the rules and payouts are usually quite different.
It's not even always the optimal strategy playing prisoner's dilemma. If all your opponents are playing "always defect", playing Tit-for-tat will consistently lose (because of the initial good-faith attempt at cooperation).