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Understanding Complexity Like an Engineer – The Case of the Ladybird Browser

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Re: Understanding Complexity Like an Engineer – The Case of the Ladybird Browser

#51

Post by asadotzler »

andrewstuart wrote: post #23

I put it to you that the web browser and the operating system are the two most sophisticated applications ever built. No doubt it’s possible to build a simple web browser that gets some 50% of the job done and could serviceabley display some websites. However there would a very very long tail of detail and nuance and edge cases that would be very very hard to catch up. This is why you should use Firefox and we should…

It's been a while since I had a need to know, but Firefox is certainly over 20 million lines of code by now. The web platform has a lot of features to support, both standardized and proprietary, and it needs to also work when web authors mis-write their sites and apps. (Forgot to close that tag, Firefox still works, that kind of stuff.)

What are the chances that a group of people come together to build another 20 million line browser? I'm with you in thinking not great. I'm also with you in supporting Firefox. That shouldn't be surprising as I'm one of the guys that started Firefox back in 2002 at Netscape when I was a member of staff@mozilla.org

Re: Understanding Complexity Like an Engineer – The Case of the Ladybird Browser

#52

Post by asadotzler »

samatman wrote: post #45
andrewstuart wrote: post #23

I put it to you that the web browser and the operating system are the two most sophisticated applications ever built. No doubt it’s possible to build a simple web browser that gets some 50% of the job done and could serviceabley display some websites. However there would a very very long tail of detail and nuance and edge cases that would be very very hard to catch up. This is why you should use Firefox and we should…

Ladybird is doing an excellent job of demonstrating that the putative unreproducible complexity of the modern web browser is just FUD. I'm glad they didn't listen to all the people repeating the conventional wisdom that writing a modern web engine from scratch is impossible. Success is the best proof.

Use it for a week. It's not really a complete web browser, IMO, kind of like trying to navigate a massive Microsoft Office document repository with Open Office in 2004.

Re: Understanding Complexity Like an Engineer – The Case of the Ladybird Browser

#53

Post by samatman »

asadotzler wrote: post #52
samatman wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ladybird is doing an excellent job of demonstrating that the putative unreproducible complexity of the modern web browser is just FUD. I'm glad they didn't listen to all the people repeating the conventional wisdom that writing a modern web engine from scratch is impossible. Success is the best proof.

Use it for a week. It's not really a complete web browser, IMO, kind of like trying to navigate a massive Microsoft Office document repository with Open Office in 2004.

It isn't finished, that's true. But my bet is that at some point it will be.

Re: Understanding Complexity Like an Engineer – The Case of the Ladybird Browser

#54

Post by TheRealPomax »

asadotzler wrote: post #49
TheRealPomax wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's not. Having worked at the foundation for a decade: to the vast majority of folks, the difference that matters is that "one makes Firefox, the other does campaigning/advocacy/outreach". The history behind why there are two different entities is fascinating, but also doesn't change the fact that they are two completely different companies with completely different org charts and completely different focuses, u…

Now you're misrepresenting things. The Foundation fully and wholly owns the Corporation and if the Corporation ever strayed from the Foundation's intentions, the Foundation could literally shut it down or sell it off. Leaving off that critical detail -- and I was an original MoFo and original MoCo employee that predates anyone else here, suggests you've got some agenda here other than informing folks about the corpor…

It may feel like an important detail, but not one that's realistically relevant? In no real world would the foundation ever sell the corporation off? O_o

And no one at the foundation has any say over what happens to Firefox (certainly not during my tenure) which was the original point: the comment said "I guess Mozilla Foundation's running the Firefox project is not to everyones liking", which perpetuates the mistaken belief that the foundation manages Firefox.

(My agenda is mostly to get folks to understand that the foundation has nothing to do with Firefox, something that isn't particularly well-communicated to this day)

Re: Understanding Complexity Like an Engineer – The Case of the Ladybird Browser

#55

Post by _heimdall »

asadotzler wrote: post #48
_heimdall wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That might be true, but if that's where we've found ourselves it seems like the best course of action is to start over with a fresh web spec focused on staying as simple as possible. Browsers have never had a sustainable revenue model. If we're at a point where building one is so complex that it requires a massive resource investment we're setup to eventually be left with only one or two highly centralized and contro…

maybe, but it absolutely won't happen, so why bother suggesting it?

Why won't it happen? If everyone agrees that what we have isn't right and will only get worse, are we supposed to march down that path anyway?

Re: Understanding Complexity Like an Engineer – The Case of the Ladybird Browser

#56

Post by wheybags »

TheRealPomax wrote: post #28
wheybags wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm aware and I hate it. I have zero interest in most of the crap the foundation gets up to, but I keep sending them money because it's the only way to "support Firefox". I want to support Firefox but I resent every cent I send them because I know they're wasting it on irrelevant crap. I would really love to see a mass resignation of Firefox engineers, who then set up a new nonprofit + ff fork, and I could just switc…

You can't fight for an open web just by making a browser. As dire as the Firefox market share is today, it'd be so much worse if the Foundation didn't spend its time and effort making sure the folks who don't give a shit, but should (e.g. politicians, law makers, lobbyists, news outlets, etc. etc.) learn why they should give a shit about the open web. It sucks that you can't donate to Firefox directly, but calling wh…

If they ditched the other stuff, maybe they could afford to run Firefox without taking money from Google. That sounds much more interesting to me than acquiring pocket, for example. Or running thunderbird. Or any of the various grab bag of random charity type projects they have going on at any time - I'm sure some of them are interesting, but actually I just like Firefox and want it to stick around. I'm not interested in lobbying the government.

Re: Understanding Complexity Like an Engineer – The Case of the Ladybird Browser

#57

Post by persolb »

_heimdall wrote: post #55
asadotzler wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

maybe, but it absolutely won't happen, so why bother suggesting it?

Why won't it happen? If everyone agrees that what we have isn't right and will only get worse, are we supposed to march down that path anyway?

I think it’s mostly the ‘everybody agree’ part. There are millions worth of years of effort pit into today’s webpages.

A more likely successful path is to standardize markdown links, and just let browsers start showing markdown natively. Throw in a simple optional style sheet for good measure.

Re: Understanding Complexity Like an Engineer – The Case of the Ladybird Browser

#58

Post by andrewstuart »

asadotzler wrote: post #51
andrewstuart wrote: post #23

I put it to you that the web browser and the operating system are the two most sophisticated applications ever built. No doubt it’s possible to build a simple web browser that gets some 50% of the job done and could serviceabley display some websites. However there would a very very long tail of detail and nuance and edge cases that would be very very hard to catch up. This is why you should use Firefox and we should…

It's been a while since I had a need to know, but Firefox is certainly over 20 million lines of code by now. The web platform has a lot of features to support, both standardized and proprietary, and it needs to also work when web authors mis-write their sites and apps. (Forgot to close that tag, Firefox still works, that kind of stuff.) What are the chances that a group of people come together to build another 20 mil…

I thank you for your service!

Re: Understanding Complexity Like an Engineer – The Case of the Ladybird Browser

#59

Post by rokkitmensch »

AlienRobot wrote: post #36
robador wrote: post #30

> As an example, the recently launched website for Dialogic requires about 700 JavaScript-modules, and has about 19.000 lines of code of its own. There is however a staggering amount of complexity hiding beneath: just this website alone depends on (potentially) another 1.3 million (!) lines of code in modules it uses. This is fine. Seriously though, that's insane.

The irony is that I clicked on the website and it looks like you could make it with wordpress...

You can make anything short of million users per day ecomm with WordPress, and even that would only take a few hardy engineers willing to put on waders.
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