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A look at the Mojo language for bioinformatics

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Re: A look at the Mojo language for bioinformatics

#51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who is considering a switch from generic software engineering towards bioinformatics, what would you say the pain points are? If this is not the way to remove workflow friction, what is?

Would like to second this question. I'm very interested in getting into this world, but it feels like there isn't a clear path (especially for someone self-taught like me). Bioinformatics feels pretty inaccessible without a computer science or biology degree, even with substantial R and Python experience.

There's a few camps in bioinformatics, from what I've seen.

1) The fellows writing papers - usually these guys have PhDs. Usually a science-focused PhD. 2) Analysts - often have a background in mathematics, biology, or big-data. Success here can lead to an onramp to camp 1. Much of your time here is spent in interactive programming environments, like Jupyter notebooks. 3) Programmers - writing novel or faster bioinformatic tools, often in low-level languages like C++ or Rust. Sometimes you can get a paper out of these, especially if you have a CS background. There's increasingly room for higher-level tools though here too, so it starts to overlap with 2. 4) Pipeline programmers - people gluing analysis workflows together out of the tools written in low-level languages, often with a liberal helping of Unix command-fu. Often sort of an ad-hoc role, containing people from diverse backgrounds, from biology to sysadmin. (This is my current role). 5) Biology/wetlab - people running experiments in the lab, and want to analyze their own work, especially for QC purposes. Wild-west ad-hoc development practices.

Re: A look at the Mojo language for bioinformatics

#52

I felt like I learned more about the author than Mojo. - Never actually runs it. Seriously. - Wants us to know it's definitely not a real parser as compared to Needlepoint...then 1000 words later, "real parser" means "handles \r\n...and validates 1st & 3rd lines begin with @ and +...seq and qual lines have the same length". - At the end, "Julia is faster!!!!" off a one-off run on their own machine, comparing it to be…

It looks like you very dramatically missed the point

Re: A look at the Mojo language for bioinformatics

#53
post #3

As someone who practices bioinformatics, it doesn’t seem appealing. Bioinformatics is like 0.1% dealing with FASTQ files and the rest is using the ecosystem of libraries for statistics and plotting. Many of them in R, by the way.

To disagree, I'm a computational biologist and it's my firm belief 99% of the scientifically important stuff happens before the stats and plotting. That's not to say I dismiss those things and haven't done my fair share of stats, but just that the difference between real results and incorrect results most often happens before that step. I'm a microbiologist though, for stuff like human RNA-Seq I understand that it's…

Sure, but I think, for example, representation learning, doesn’t involve manipulating an array of strings.

Re: A look at the Mojo language for bioinformatics

#54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Author here. I do know about VMs. Is it too lazy for me to write that article and not bother to install a VM with Mojo (and Rust and Julia, to benchmark in the same environment)? Maybe. If this was for my work I certainly would have felt compelled to. On the other hand, the fact that Mojo doesn't run on Windows and most Linux distros is a point in itself. And also, would the blog post really be substantially improved…

>> Is it too lazy for me to write that article and not bother to install a VM with Mojo Yes. Would you talk about a book you didn't read? Or a movie you didn't see? Not on any meaningful level.

That's not a very good analogy, you can understand code without having to run it.

Re: A look at the Mojo language for bioinformatics

#55

Another point of clarification that is of great importance to the results, and is a common Rust newcomer error: The benchmarks for the Rust implementation (in the original post that got all the traction) were run with a /debug/ build of rust, i.e. not an optimized binary compiled with --release. So it was comparing something that a) didn't do meaningful parsing against b) the full parsing rust implementation in a non…

Am I missing something? In the git repository [0] it says:

> needletail_benchmark folder was compiled using the command cargo build --release and ran using the following command ./target/release/ .

Or are you talking about something else here?

[0] https://github.com/MoSafi2/MojoFastTrim

Re: A look at the Mojo language for bioinformatics

#56

I felt like I learned more about the author than Mojo. - Never actually runs it. Seriously. - Wants us to know it's definitely not a real parser as compared to Needlepoint...then 1000 words later, "real parser" means "handles \r\n...and validates 1st & 3rd lines begin with @ and +...seq and qual lines have the same length". - At the end, "Julia is faster!!!!" off a one-off run on their own machine, comparing it to be…

It looks like you very dramatically missed the point

Please, explain

Re: A look at the Mojo language for bioinformatics

#57
post #30

Great post. I think Mojo's claims like the speedup over Rust are a problem, like the 65000x speedup over Python. How can we differentiate between good new tech and Silicon Valley shenanigans when they use claims like that? They do nice titles and slogans but are shady in substance

I can't take this language or company serious after reading stuff like:

"Mojo may be the biggest programming language advance in decades"

https://www.fast.ai/posts/2023-05-03-mojo-launch.html

Re: A look at the Mojo language for bioinformatics

#58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Author here. I do know about VMs. Is it too lazy for me to write that article and not bother to install a VM with Mojo (and Rust and Julia, to benchmark in the same environment)? Maybe. If this was for my work I certainly would have felt compelled to. On the other hand, the fact that Mojo doesn't run on Windows and most Linux distros is a point in itself. And also, would the blog post really be substantially improved…

>> Is it too lazy for me to write that article and not bother to install a VM with Mojo Yes. Would you talk about a book you didn't read? Or a movie you didn't see? Not on any meaningful level.

Someone knowledgeable enough about movies can read a script and know of it's good or not without needing to see it actually produced.

Here, it's possible to read the code and know what the program does sufficient to critique it for what it is.

Re: A look at the Mojo language for bioinformatics

#59
post #7

>>> As a bioinformatician who is obsessed with high-performance, high-level programming, that's right in my wheelhouse!... Mojo currently only runs on Ubuntu and MacOS, and I run neither. So, I can't run any Mojo code 1. Back to the rust vs mojo article that kicked this off... this isnt someone who is going to use rust. 2. Availably, portability, ease of use... These are the reasons python is winning. 3. I am baffled…

Got the same general impression, TL;DR: wrote a benchmark article without...running it? Then you conclude with "the language I use is faster!!!" based on a one-off run on your machine, which surely isn't the same machine Mojo used to run bechmarks for their website copy? It's odd to read something that's pretty well-versed with some relatively complex CS concepts, i.e. it's not just a PhD with a blank text editor. Bu…

>TL;DR: wrote a benchmark article without...running it?

He benchmarks against the rust implementation, which, unless benchmarks have zero meaning, should be sufficient to get a general sense of the scale of the difference. The post is obviously not meant as the last word on this benchmark, it's meant to show that the benchmark is kinda meaningless.

>Then you conclude with "the language I use is faster!!!"

If this is your take-home from the post, it's pretty clear you didn't read it, or your reading comprehension needs some work. That sentence was obviously facetious, poking a little fun at the author of the original piece.

Re: A look at the Mojo language for bioinformatics

#60
How does a software engineer transition into bioinformatics or computational biology? I've taken some online courses on bioinformatics and have some experience in large distributed jobs but these jobs seem few and far in between and generally want M.S/PhDs in bioinformatics. Is it really a field that's not viable to enter without an MS?
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