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Report on the role of standardized test scores in undergraduate admissions [pdf]

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Re: Report on the role of standardized test scores in undergraduate admissions [pdf]

#51

Post by seanmcdirmid »

Rebuff5007 wrote: post #44
ZeWaka wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't enroll infinite people.

No, but surely you can enroll more people. I can't imagine theres a dearth of physical space or qualified educators near any university. The fact that they are not growing to accommodate the demand has always boggled my mind...

Space isn’t the limiter, teaching hours via faculty are. The most popular universities, research ones, have faculty that teach only a few undergrad classes a year. Changing those popular universities into ones more focused on undergrad education would make them less popular.

Germany might be a better model where barebones education is easily accessible. They leave much more up to students: your homework might not be looked at and your grade depends solely on a final exam. No student centers or leafy campuses either.

Re: Report on the role of standardized test scores in undergraduate admissions [pdf]

#52

Post by troupe »

ccleve wrote: post #28

Here's the money quote: >> Importantly, these test scores better position Admissions to identify high-achieving less-advantaged applicants and high-achieving applicants who attend high schools for which Dartmouth has less information to interpret the transcripts. Precisely. SATs aren't about hurting the poor or disadvantaged. It's about giving them a chance.

If a school asks for SAT or ACT scores but, hypothetically, wants to discriminate based on race or some other characteristic, doesn't requiring the ACT/SAT make them more likely to be liable for discrimination because there is an objective standard to show that they are treating some groups differently than others? I thought that some of the recent rulings against selecting students based on their race hinged on the statistics showing that some groups were able to get in with lower ACT/SAT scores, while other groups had to have a much higher score to be admitted.

Re: Report on the role of standardized test scores in undergraduate admissions [pdf]

#53

Post by bradley13 »

SnooSux wrote: post #5

To measure academic achievement they use First Year GPA. It makes sense they're correlated, both require studying known material for a test. But is GPA the best measure, especially first year? I would be interested in other metrics like 3rd-4th year GPA or placements into jobs and such.

The thing is: completely unsuitable students need to fail out in the first year. That's what "weeder" courses are for. They prevent students wasting time and money, only to fail out years later.

Which means: you don't have the same stats for 3rd and 4th year students.

Re: Report on the role of standardized test scores in undergraduate admissions [pdf]

#54

Post by dghlsakjg »

doctorpangloss wrote: post #35
ccleve wrote: post #28

Here's the money quote: >> Importantly, these test scores better position Admissions to identify high-achieving less-advantaged applicants and high-achieving applicants who attend high schools for which Dartmouth has less information to interpret the transcripts. Precisely. SATs aren't about hurting the poor or disadvantaged. It's about giving them a chance.

If the universities were sincere about that, they would figure out how to increase enrollment. Why is every parameter of admissions open to change despite tradition, except that one?

Dartmouth in 1950 was an all mens college that enrolled less than 2,500. Women weren't allowed until the 1970s.

Dartmouth today has 6,700 students of all races, genders, religions.

Enrollment numbers can and do change, but it is much harder and slower to change something that is physically and resource constrained than it is to change policy.

Re: Report on the role of standardized test scores in undergraduate admissions [pdf]

#55

Post by Macha »

amusingimpala75 wrote: post #45

Recently saw an article about parents spending hundreds of thousands of dollars to have their kids work with professional resume builders just to get an advantage with college applications. Now that many colleges are trying to phase out SATs because “it discriminates against poorer households”, it’s being replaced with essay and resume based things that seem to provide an advantage to the richer households who can af…

Yeah, Canonical presented one of these 40 question style interviews that felt like a very thinly veiled class check in comparison to the usual interviews in my country. I'd much rather a whiteboard exercise than that.

Apparently it's been discussed on HN before: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37059857

Re: Report on the role of standardized test scores in undergraduate admissions [pdf]

#56

Post by boeingUH60 »

amusingimpala75 wrote: post #45

Recently saw an article about parents spending hundreds of thousands of dollars to have their kids work with professional resume builders just to get an advantage with college applications. Now that many colleges are trying to phase out SATs because “it discriminates against poorer households”, it’s being replaced with essay and resume based things that seem to provide an advantage to the richer households who can af…

That was the aim always. To disadvantage the poor and middle class by disguising under “equality” and “diversity”.

Two-faced hypocrisy at its peak.

Re: Report on the role of standardized test scores in undergraduate admissions [pdf]

#57

Post by nordsieck »

Avicebron wrote: post #39
doctorpangloss wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the universities were sincere about that, they would figure out how to increase enrollment. Why is every parameter of admissions open to change despite tradition, except that one?

I tend to think there is an unspoken fear that if it became more accessible it loses its prestige

> I tend to think there is an unspoken fear that if it became more accessible it loses its prestige

That might be a concern for Dartmouth and the Ivys. But for US state schools, not so much. And those generally provide a very high value:cost product.

Re: Report on the role of standardized test scores in undergraduate admissions [pdf]

#58

Post by piombisallow »

ccleve wrote: post #28

Here's the money quote: >> Importantly, these test scores better position Admissions to identify high-achieving less-advantaged applicants and high-achieving applicants who attend high schools for which Dartmouth has less information to interpret the transcripts. Precisely. SATs aren't about hurting the poor or disadvantaged. It's about giving them a chance.

What, you mean kids from a disadvantaged background can't build a 10 page CV filled with outreach, volunteering, expensive sports and musical practice by the time they're 18? They don't have an instinctive feel for the current pieties, bred into them since they're 3, to put in their admission essays?

Re: Report on the role of standardized test scores in undergraduate admissions [pdf]

#60

Post by omgJustTest »

ccleve wrote: post #28

Here's the money quote: >> Importantly, these test scores better position Admissions to identify high-achieving less-advantaged applicants and high-achieving applicants who attend high schools for which Dartmouth has less information to interpret the transcripts. Precisely. SATs aren't about hurting the poor or disadvantaged. It's about giving them a chance.

IMO the thing that tests do not sample is persistance. Missing that degree of freedom misses important mind-sets to achieving goals.

One of the most interesting studies, not specifically focused on "success" / GPA, but on "life-satisfaction" comes from a longitudinal study "Project Talent"[1]. The key correlation to "life-satisfaction"/happiness is how many questions a person _attempts_ to answer on an otherwise un-finishable exam.

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Talent

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