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Germany tests 4-day workweek amid labor shortage

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Re: Germany tests 4-day workweek amid labor shortage

#51
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How's the fraction of income devoted to housing in that calculation? A lot of people would love to go back to 1940s house prices, but of course you simply can't do that.

> A lot of people would love to go back to 1940s house prices In USA? Adjusted for inflation, you had pretty flat housing prices until mid 90s, where the housing bubble started. And even now and on peak of the housing bubble of 2008 the house will cost you 250% the cost of 1940s house (or 180% of the 1950s which is more fair comparison since it was after the war) which is not that bad.

Don't know about the US, but corrected for inflation, Dutch housing prices have risen steadily since the 1950s, and shot up a lot faster since the late 1990s: https://www.mejudice.nl/artikelen/detail/huizenprijzen-sinds...

Re: Germany tests 4-day workweek amid labor shortage

#52
post #6

The 4-day work week is long overdue. Keynes promised us a 15-hour work week thanks to productivity gains, but those productivity gains have mostly been eaten up by excessive corporate profit-taking. Lots of people are overworked and underpaid. I've been working a 4-day week for well over a decade (also because I've got kids, but I did this well before I had kids), and I strongly recommend it for everybody.

How would you do that if you don’t work for yourself?

I tell every prospective employer that I work 4*8. Only once over the past 24 years has this been an insurmountable obstacle for an employer.

Thought I suppose that this might be a lot harder in more conservative exploitative cultures. Working 4.5 days, with one free day per two weeks, is incredibly common in Netherland. Part time is not uncommon.

Re: Germany tests 4-day workweek amid labor shortage

#53
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. However, since I don't like being underpayed, I will pack my things and move to Switzerland after having received my taxpayer-funded education. Sincerely, a tech worker

I assume you feel underpaid only when you look at Swiss salaries form German CoL perspective. But I assume Swiss salaries are not high when you're also paying Swiss CoL, then they're just regular salaries.

Berlin, Munich and other big cities, where most of the tech jobs are, have had massive inflation over the last few years. There is a huge gap in terms of rents and mortgages between those who bought or signed a rental contract prior to 2021 and now. Meanwhile the strong CHF has led to Swiss inflation being somewhat lower. Kurzgesagt: German CoL is catching up but salaries remain behind.

Re: Germany tests 4-day workweek amid labor shortage

#54
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I only have my own work history to go off of. Edit: An example. If it takes me 5 days to hang siding on a house, and I don't work one of those days, that's 20% less I didn't work and about 20% less of the work that got done.

Iirc, there are several of studies that imply that if you have the same developer working 40 vs 32 hours, the difference in output is often negligible, since not all hours worked are the same in terms of effectiveness. You might not be aware of that effect, since you deny it explicitly when it comes to your own work, but you might view it in a different light if you turn it around: Would you produce twice as much if…

> Iirc, there are several of studies that imply that if you have the same developer working 40 vs 32 hours, the difference in output is often negligible, since not all hours worked are the same in terms of effectiveness.

I guess it depends on the work. In my example, hanging siding on a house, the non-productive work is quite minimal. I guess that can vary depending on the work one is doing. The non-productive work still needs to get done so the productive work can get done, though.

> Would you produce twice as much if you were to work 80 hours? Probably not, right? You'd maybe produce about 1.5 times as much, and the quality of your work would suffer greatly, leading to more work in the future.

I doubt many people can sustain their work output over 16 hours for most jobs. But that's not really what we're talking about here.

> The same effect might work in the other direction, up to a certain point.

Sure, if you work faster when you work less hours. Are you saying this is what happens? Are you seeing people get too fatigued after 6 hours of work so that their productivity is diminished? I've not seen that in general with the people I've worked with or the work I do over the years.

> The 40 hour work week is not god-given, in fact it has been reduced quite a number of times in the past (mostly due to unions, like most working condition improvemens). So I can not understand why so many people act as if it were set in stone.

I'm not sure where this came from because I don't think any of those things. I think that the only way for work to get done is to do it. However many hours per week that takes is fine. I don't understand the argument that working less doesn't mean you get less work done in general.

All that said, I realize there might be something different to brain fatigue vs body fatigue when doing brain work (software development) vs physical work (construction). I've largely done physical work and can't relate well to brain work except as a hobby and occasional small bits of work.

Re: Germany tests 4-day workweek amid labor shortage

#55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Increase the salary of childcare workers etc. Do not increase the salary of tech workers in Germany. We are already making more of our fair share. More than double or triple the amount of money that a person working way harder makes. Sincerely, a tech worker in Germany

>We are already making more of our fair share. Maybe at big-tech and fanngs. On average at local companies not so much. > More than double or triple the amount of money that a person working way harder makes. Triple take home pay? Highly unlikely. Some outliers sure, on average no.

If anyone working in tech in Germany is feeling overpaid, I would recommend they get out of their current rental contract or mortgage and get a new one at current rates. Or simply forego their inheritance.

Saving for retirement in Germany as a middle-class employee is tremendously hard.

Re: Germany tests 4-day workweek amid labor shortage

#56
post #44
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> - A 20% reduction of work time never amounts to a 20% reduction of productivity or work output, unless the work consists solely of sitting in a chair (and that's not counting bathroom breaks). I don't understand what you're saying here. If I work 20% less then that's 20% less work that I get done. I don't sit in a chair for work.

20% reduction of work is not working 20% less. It's working 20% less time. Productivity and time aren't correlated.

They are largely correlated in just about all work that I've done. Is your experience different?

Re: Germany tests 4-day workweek amid labor shortage

#57
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume you feel underpaid only when you look at Swiss salaries form German CoL perspective. But I assume Swiss salaries are not high when you're also paying Swiss CoL, then they're just regular salaries.

Berlin, Munich and other big cities, where most of the tech jobs are, have had massive inflation over the last few years. There is a huge gap in terms of rents and mortgages between those who bought or signed a rental contract prior to 2021 and now. Meanwhile the strong CHF has led to Swiss inflation being somewhat lower. Kurzgesagt: German CoL is catching up but salaries remain behind.

>Berlin, Munich and other big cities

Sure, but rents and property prices in Zurich and Geneva aren't low at all either. Quite the contrary. My friend in Geneva is feeling super broke. Salaries are high only at the companies of the top of the food chain where it overpowers the insane CoL.

>Kurzgesagt: German CoL is catching up but salaries remain behind.

Ha, Austria laughs at this. Lower salaries than Germany with higher prices than Germany. Someone shout BINGO.

Re: Germany tests 4-day workweek amid labor shortage

#58
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume you feel underpaid only when you look at Swiss salaries form German CoL perspective. But I assume Swiss salaries are not high when you're also paying Swiss CoL, then they're just regular salaries.

Berlin, Munich and other big cities, where most of the tech jobs are, have had massive inflation over the last few years. There is a huge gap in terms of rents and mortgages between those who bought or signed a rental contract prior to 2021 and now. Meanwhile the strong CHF has led to Swiss inflation being somewhat lower. Kurzgesagt: German CoL is catching up but salaries remain behind.

Whoever said that in Germany people make enough are nuts.

Let's suppose you have 2 kids. If you get a rental contract in Berlin Today, in 2023. The ideal space according to the government and known research is 30m2 per person, you'd need an apartment with 120m2.

120m2 apartments are like 2500 euros per month, more than half of your salary post-taxes. Tenants typically ask for rents to be 30% of your income, you'd have trouble finding an apartment.

Here's why people also don't have kids in Germany, salaries are terrible.

I've been living here in Berlin for almost 10 years. And only after 8 years I could have a decent life here, even making definitely above the market salaries. And by decent I mean, better than my third-world country.

People won't be willing to move to Germany if they'll live in a shoebox and have no disposable income. They'd rather stay home where their parents, family and friends are, save money and speak their local language.

And without Immigrants, given that Germans in general don't want to reproduce because they can't afford having kids, the country's population size will start decaying.

This post-war mindset from a few people in Germany that people need to get paid just enough to buy Bread and live in a shared flat is what is sinking that country.

Re: Germany tests 4-day workweek amid labor shortage

#59

Terribly written article and headline. Germany isn't 45 German companies that will try it. There's no labor shortage in Germany, what there is, are proper salaries. One example are childcare workers in Kindergartens (Kita). Salaries are low and regulated, so nobody wants to do it. Increase the salary and you will have many workers lining up. Germany has managed to grow for decades, from absolute destruction post WW2…

Increase the salary of childcare workers etc. Do not increase the salary of tech workers in Germany. We are already making more of our fair share. More than double or triple the amount of money that a person working way harder makes. Sincerely, a tech worker in Germany

Maybe at BMW or Google, but certainly not everyone in tech.

Re: Germany tests 4-day workweek amid labor shortage

#60
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Keynes promised us a 15-hour work week And I bet he was quite right, but there is an important nuance: it's true for the 1940s level of consumption. If you reduce your level of consumption to 1940s level, you could easily manage to have 15-hour week. > but those productivity gains have mostly been eaten up by excessive corporate profit-taking You seem to gravely underestimate the huge gap in economic value between…

Even in tech, in Germany a 15h work week, i.e., a 36%-40% part time job’s salary would cover taxes, rent and rent utilities, and basic health insurance. No food, clothing whatsoever.

If I reduce my german tech salary by 2/3 I can't even pay my rent.
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