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We've Forgotten How to Use Computers

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Re: We've Forgotten How to Use Computers

#51

Post by zokier »

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #37
Dalewyn wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be brutally honest: Job is (was?) right. To this day I see most people do not understand right-clicking, and why should they? Context menus are not in-your-face obvious, let alone right-click dragging and other esoteric maneuvers. I see something similar with touchscreens too: Most people don't know much beyond pinch to zoom. Any gestures or input involving 3 fingers or more is literal pig latin. Simplifying the m…

Jobs was wrong. Not just a bit wrong, totally wrong. Computers are tools. Do you see grinder manufacturers say "we only need one type of disk, because people should not have to remember whether they need a diamond blade for masonry or a metal cutting one?" You do not. There is a frame in which Jobs is correct - the frame in which computers are not tools, but devices intended for the passive consumption of content pro…

Reducing required operator skill level and training needed is absolutely major driver in commercial/industrial equipment development, and has been throughout the industrial era. If production line is able to specify just one standardized cutting disk, even if suboptimal otherwise, instead of requiring worker to choose between multiple ones, then it definitely can happen. Its very romanticized view to think that the world runs on highly skilled craftspeople using finely honed chest of tools.

Re: We've Forgotten How to Use Computers

#52

Post by Dalewyn »

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #37
Dalewyn wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be brutally honest: Job is (was?) right. To this day I see most people do not understand right-clicking, and why should they? Context menus are not in-your-face obvious, let alone right-click dragging and other esoteric maneuvers. I see something similar with touchscreens too: Most people don't know much beyond pinch to zoom. Any gestures or input involving 3 fingers or more is literal pig latin. Simplifying the m…

Jobs was wrong. Not just a bit wrong, totally wrong. Computers are tools. Do you see grinder manufacturers say "we only need one type of disk, because people should not have to remember whether they need a diamond blade for masonry or a metal cutting one?" You do not. There is a frame in which Jobs is correct - the frame in which computers are not tools, but devices intended for the passive consumption of content pro…

Au contraire, that diamond blade cuts masonry and masonry only. It doesn't cut masonry and metal, so you don't need to remember "Does this blade also cut this too?". The grinder grinds and grinds only, it doesn't also make you breakfast.

Likewise, Apple mice only ever click. It doesn't left and right click.

Speaking more broadly, Apple computers only ever do One Apple Way(tm). They don't do One Apple Way(tm) and also IBM-compatible/Windows/Linux.

Tools are supposed to be simple in design, because their value is in them delivering results quickly and easily for everyone. And most people using computers want results because computers are tools, they couldn't care less about the process other than keeping it as simple as possible.

I would be the last person on the planet to defend Jobs or Apple's philosophy, but I will give credit where credit is due because they by far understand human psychology the best out of everyone in the tech industry.

Re: We've Forgotten How to Use Computers

#53

Post by LightHugger »

skyyler wrote: post #32
a_gnostic wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

3D PC gaming? Kb/mouse > game pad > touch screen

I still think the trackball should have taken off for FPS games. Huge flicks and fine precision on the same device without a dpi switch...

Trackball is my 100% goto for a tiny desk/table or even in bed, basically any time i want to control the pointer without swinging my whole arm around.

But mouse is far more precise specifically because you are throwing your whole arm around in addition to your wrist and fingertips. there is a far wider range of speeds you can be very precise at. Trackball is not great for FPS, though it's better than trackpads.

Re: We've Forgotten How to Use Computers

#54

Post by NoZebra120vClip »

aleph_minus_one wrote: post #18
Dalewyn wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be brutally honest: Job is (was?) right. To this day I see most people do not understand right-clicking, and why should they? Context menus are not in-your-face obvious, let alone right-click dragging and other esoteric maneuvers. I see something similar with touchscreens too: Most people don't know much beyond pinch to zoom. Any gestures or input involving 3 fingers or more is literal pig latin. Simplifying the m…

> To this day I see most people do not understand right-clicking, and why should they? Context menus are not in-your-face obvious, let alone right-click dragging and other esoteric maneuvers. This was the reason why Microsoft introduced Minesweeper to Windows 3.1: > https://web.archive.org/web/20190925214943/https://mentalflo... "Decades later, in 1992, the Microsoft version Minesweeper was introduced to Windows 3.1—…

In 1980, Rogue for Unix was a dungeon crawl game that coincidentally used the same keys as vi for navigation. Even today, Nethack and vim are widely revered. Nethack takes vi training further: there are several two-key commands, and some prefix keys which open a "command-line" interface.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogue_(video_game)

https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Commands

https://vim-adventures.com/

Even today, I posit that twitch video games train future developers and users on UX/UI features. In a mobile or web GUI, there are moving targets; there is progressive rendering; there are ephemeral dialogs. If you've played DOOM and Fortnite, then you're better equipped for all that.

Re: We've Forgotten How to Use Computers

#55

Post by poisonborz »

dromio wrote: post #4

What is this article even trying to say? Clickbait title but the whole thing is about using a mouse? Yeah, interfaces are evolving. Most of the populace use a computer not for using's sake, but to accomplish a goal. Touchscreens are great for information consumption and free-form entry. Keyboards are good for text production. What is a mouse good for other than manipulating 2d objects?

I'm strongly biased against the "neckbeard" stance of keyboard superiority. GUIs evolved for a reason. Keyboard-only controls require a lot of memorisation, are less intuitively learned (besides a slim portion of OS specific traditions), muscle memory becomes tied to the hardware more strongly (layout and feel). Mouse allows to quickly point in a complex UI where elements visually describe themselves. Thumbsticks and touchpads are clunky, fingers just don't have the same precision. The downside being the constant arm movement away from keyboard.

Re: We've Forgotten How to Use Computers

#56

Post by adrian_b »

Dalewyn wrote: post #10
SoftTalker wrote: post #3

The reason the original Macintosh mouse had only one button: so users would not need to remember which one to click. That was a Jobs mandate.

To be brutally honest: Job is (was?) right. To this day I see most people do not understand right-clicking, and why should they? Context menus are not in-your-face obvious, let alone right-click dragging and other esoteric maneuvers. I see something similar with touchscreens too: Most people don't know much beyond pinch to zoom. Any gestures or input involving 3 fingers or more is literal pig latin. Simplifying the m…

When I was still using an Apple computer, many years ago, the one-button mouse was what I hated the most.

I even despised the two-button Microsoft mouse.

Both were much worse than a three-button mouse, when the buttons were used cleverly by the user interface. The replacement of the third button with the scroll wheel has started for me the process of finding alternatives for a mouse and eventually abandoning its use.

Most people have never seen a user interface that uses properly all the three buttons of a mouse, so they have no idea how much better that can be than having an uncomfortable scroll wheel in the place of such a button.

Such a good user interface was used for instance around 2000, when you could still find Logitech three-button mice, in the Mentor programs for drawing circuit schematics and PCB layouts.

The third button was used for making mouse gestures, i.e. tracing some pattern on the pad. Each mouse gesture was pretty much equivalent with pressing a keyboard shortcut, but being able to use them with the mouse enabled the user to make most drawings without ever moving the hand from the mouse to the keyboard, which sped up the work a lot.

Scrolling was done in a much better way than with a scroll wheel, by just moving the mouse cursor close to the window side corresponding with the desired scroll direction.

Re: We've Forgotten How to Use Computers

#57

Post by Izkata »

kkfx wrote: post #47

Mh... I agree with the title, not much with the content... Back then as a student I was using laptops as desktop replacer, as many others, but when I seriously star using computers I realize that I need a desktop, with a decent keyboard and a thumb trackball. All wired. I realize how stupid big laptops are, since they should exists just for portability needs and on-the-go limited usages. NOT used docked, NOT used dir…

That post pins the shift around 2017, but here's one that mentions it and more from 2013: http://www.coding2learn.org/blog/2013/07/29/kids-cant-use-co...

Re: We've Forgotten How to Use Computers

#58

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

Dalewyn wrote: post #52
PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jobs was wrong. Not just a bit wrong, totally wrong. Computers are tools. Do you see grinder manufacturers say "we only need one type of disk, because people should not have to remember whether they need a diamond blade for masonry or a metal cutting one?" You do not. There is a frame in which Jobs is correct - the frame in which computers are not tools, but devices intended for the passive consumption of content pro…

Au contraire, that diamond blade cuts masonry and masonry only. It doesn't cut masonry and metal, so you don't need to remember "Does this blade also cut this too?" . The grinder grinds and grinds only, it doesn't also make you breakfast. Likewise, Apple mice only ever click. It doesn't left and right click. Speaking more broadly, Apple computers only ever do One Apple Way(tm). They don't do One Apple Way(tm) and als…

> Likewise, Apple mice only ever click.

Precisely. It's like DeWalt or Milwaukee only making a diamond blade, because "you never need to cut metal, and you shouldn't have to think about that anyway".

> Tools are supposed to be simple in design, because their value is in them delivering results quickly and easily for everyone.

This is not the history of human tools.

Re: We've Forgotten How to Use Computers

#59

Post by adrian_b »

Dalewyn wrote: post #52
PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jobs was wrong. Not just a bit wrong, totally wrong. Computers are tools. Do you see grinder manufacturers say "we only need one type of disk, because people should not have to remember whether they need a diamond blade for masonry or a metal cutting one?" You do not. There is a frame in which Jobs is correct - the frame in which computers are not tools, but devices intended for the passive consumption of content pro…

Au contraire, that diamond blade cuts masonry and masonry only. It doesn't cut masonry and metal, so you don't need to remember "Does this blade also cut this too?" . The grinder grinds and grinds only, it doesn't also make you breakfast. Likewise, Apple mice only ever click. It doesn't left and right click. Speaking more broadly, Apple computers only ever do One Apple Way(tm). They don't do One Apple Way(tm) and als…

People have three fingers on the mouse and there is nothing obvious or simple in the fact that they must use only one of the three fingers.

According to your theory, most people should cut their extra fingers, because it is too difficult for them to remember that they can do and they should do different actions with each finger.

The user must input eventually the same information with a 1-button Apple mouse or a 2-button Microsoft mouse or a 3-button Mouse Systems mouse.

An Apple user must compensate the lack of mouse buttons by either making multiple mouse clicks or pressing simultaneously with the mouse various keyboard keys.

All these additional actions are slower, more complicated and harder to remember than the task of a user who must just choose with which finger to click.

So no, the idea that a one-button mouse is simpler for the user is just wrong. In fact it is both slower and more complicated.

Re: We've Forgotten How to Use Computers

#60

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

zokier wrote: post #51
PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jobs was wrong. Not just a bit wrong, totally wrong. Computers are tools. Do you see grinder manufacturers say "we only need one type of disk, because people should not have to remember whether they need a diamond blade for masonry or a metal cutting one?" You do not. There is a frame in which Jobs is correct - the frame in which computers are not tools, but devices intended for the passive consumption of content pro…

Reducing required operator skill level and training needed is absolutely major driver in commercial/industrial equipment development, and has been throughout the industrial era. If production line is able to specify just one standardized cutting disk, even if suboptimal otherwise, instead of requiring worker to choose between multiple ones, then it definitely can happen. Its very romanticized view to think that the w…

> Reducing required operator skill level and training needed is absolutely major driver in commercial/industrial equipment development

No, it is an imperative driven by capitalism. Employees don't want this. Tool users don't want this (because as you note, if the blade can cut everything it likely doesn't cut anything very well).

The motivation for the kind of tool development you're referring to is not the development of improved tools, but reduced labor costs (and sometimes, possibly, tighter tolerances). That's not a model for tools explicitly marketed (by Jobs!) as tools for everyone.

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