Retired teacher's pension stopped as provider refuses to believe she is not dead • Hacker News Board

Re: Retired teacher's pension stopped as provider refuses to believe she is not dead

#51

Post by andrewaylett » Sat, Jan 20, 2024, 1:14 PM UTC

chokma wrote: post #39

Swiss pensions for foreigners are also only paid if the recipient proves they are alive once a year. My father had to sent proof of being alive for decades. To be fair, it is much harder to verify this automatically if the recipient lives in another country.

That's also different, as it's a known and deliberate process that -- I suspect -- has both a set expectation that the recipient will check in and an explicit reminder before payment is stopped.

It is reasonably easy for the pension provider in the case at hand to tell when someone dies. A bit too easy, some might say.

Re: Retired teacher's pension stopped as provider refuses to believe she is not dead

#52

Post by itronitron » Sat, Jan 20, 2024, 1:17 PM UTC

cracadumi wrote: post #45

zimpenfish wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, there have been several stories (normally "world's oldest person!!!" type) where relatives have been claiming pensions and benefits for sometimes decades after the actual person died. Whether the number of those stories and the amount of money involved is worth the hassle to the people not defrauding governments is left as an exercise to the reader...

Reminds me of Sogen Kato's story : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sogen_Kato

hmm, I wonder how long it will be until someone makes a 'pensioner-bot' that passes for a deceased relative.

Re: Retired teacher's pension stopped as provider refuses to believe she is not dead

#53

Post by gruez » Sat, Jan 20, 2024, 1:21 PM UTC

wslh wrote: post #28

zimpenfish wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, there have been several stories (normally "world's oldest person!!!" type) where relatives have been claiming pensions and benefits for sometimes decades after the actual person died. Whether the number of those stories and the amount of money involved is worth the hassle to the people not defrauding governments is left as an exercise to the reader...

To be more fair: it is easy to check if they are alive or not. This is not rocket science.

How is it easy? How do you make sure the old person in front of you is really the pensioner and not her 80 year old daughter?

Re: Retired teacher's pension stopped as provider refuses to believe she is not dead

#54

Post by sorokod » Sat, Jan 20, 2024, 1:23 PM UTC

cornholio wrote: post #20

sorokod wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a pattern where accountability is outsourced by bureaucrats to software (they are supposed to be accountable for) and the citizens. The Post Office Scandal has a similar theme.

It's a pretty sweet deal: we can't be responsible for something that the software does, since we are not programmers; meanwhile, the software provider has a thick contract that says he can't be held legally or financially responsible, so he's happy to take the political hit, it's not like it would prevent them from getting another contract in the future. It's like being the Ticketmaster of administrative accountabili…

That is where accountability differs from responsibility. It is the business of the government to make sure that:

* the contract with the software vendor is free of the kind of fuckery you mentioned

* the product it has signed off on at the end of the processes is fit for purpose.

Lawyers and programmers are responsible for crafting contracts and software. The government is accountable for the end result.

Re: Retired teacher's pension stopped as provider refuses to believe she is not dead

#55

Post by samus » Sat, Jan 20, 2024, 1:29 PM UTC

methou wrote: post #50

Every year my grand parents have to take a photo of themselves holding a recent newspaper with date clearly visible to whoever is managing their pension. After the internet and apps plaged the world, now they have to download an app then tilt node and wink to the camera to prove that they are alive. ("If you cannot use a phone, ask your children") I have mixed feeling about this, it's hard to say this is not degenera…

What about a public registry of deaths that can notify parties with justified interest (pension providers, maybe insurances and banks) about such events? That should work for domestic cases at least. Tracking deaths for people living abroad in their retirement is more tricky I admit.

Maybe such a registry doesn't exist in the UK to begin with? Since it also doesn't have a residence registry.

Edit: my bad, it actually works too well and then they do a bad job at matching records. I should have read TFA first...

Re: Retired teacher's pension stopped as provider refuses to believe she is not dead

#56

Post by wslh » Sat, Jan 20, 2024, 1:36 PM UTC

gruez wrote: post #53

wslh wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be more fair: it is easy to check if they are alive or not. This is not rocket science.

How is it easy? How do you make sure the old person in front of you is really the pensioner and not her 80 year old daughter?

Sorry, but we have not doing this for centuries if not milleniums for trillion of people before us?

Re: Retired teacher's pension stopped as provider refuses to believe she is not dead

#57

Post by lazide » Sat, Jan 20, 2024, 1:41 PM UTC

wslh wrote: post #56

gruez wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it easy? How do you make sure the old person in front of you is really the pensioner and not her 80 year old daughter?

Sorry, but we have not doing this for centuries if not milleniums for trillion of people before us?

We haven’t at this scale, no.

For most of human existence, you would already know if Bob or Jane was dead, since you’d have gone to their funeral or knew someone who had.

Re: Retired teacher's pension stopped as provider refuses to believe she is not dead

#58

Post by m-p-3 » Sat, Jan 20, 2024, 1:44 PM UTC

wslh wrote: post #28

zimpenfish wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, there have been several stories (normally "world's oldest person!!!" type) where relatives have been claiming pensions and benefits for sometimes decades after the actual person died. Whether the number of those stories and the amount of money involved is worth the hassle to the people not defrauding governments is left as an exercise to the reader...

To be more fair: it is easy to check if they are alive or not. This is not rocket science.

How do you reliably do it at a massive scale? Other than using some kind of biometrics, there's the possibility of impersonation.

Re: Retired teacher's pension stopped as provider refuses to believe she is not dead

#59

Post by hgomersall » Sat, Jan 20, 2024, 1:45 PM UTC

methou wrote: post #50

Every year my grand parents have to take a photo of themselves holding a recent newspaper with date clearly visible to whoever is managing their pension. After the internet and apps plaged the world, now they have to download an app then tilt node and wink to the camera to prove that they are alive. ("If you cannot use a phone, ask your children") I have mixed feeling about this, it's hard to say this is not degenera…

It's really simple. You just require that the death certificate is used to close down a pension[1]. Sure people can continue to fraudulently claim a pension but at some point it's unsustainable and they'd be forced to fess up and they will be suitably prosecuted.

[1] https://docs.api.lev.homeoffice.gov.uk/life-event-verificati...

Re: Retired teacher's pension stopped as provider refuses to believe she is not dead

#60

Post by wslh » Sat, Jan 20, 2024, 1:46 PM UTC

lazide wrote: post #57

wslh wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, but we have not doing this for centuries if not milleniums for trillion of people before us?

We haven’t at this scale, no. For most of human existence, you would already know if Bob or Jane was dead, since you’d have gone to their funeral or knew someone who had.

Sorry, I am missing something. Are you saying that the people that are dying every day, in the developed world, is uncounted by a big margin? What is that margin?