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We need technology that is less immersive, not more

filiph.net

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Re: We need technology that is less immersive, not more

#51

Many of the most talented artists of our time don’t do any art — they work in advertising. I think the original quote is: The best minds of my generation are thinking about how to make people click ads (source: https://quoteinvestigator.com/2017/06/12/click/ ) which is very close to article’s paraphrase

You could really say this about anything, the only moral to the story is that people have to work to pay the bills and the work that pays is the unglamorous stuff that needs doing.

I believe this has been true throughout human history. The greatest artists and thinkers throughout history have earned their keep by providing services to the wealthy or teaching paying students (also often wealthy).

There are upsides, the artists get to eat but they also have all the benefits of being connected to their employer/patron including time spent practicing their craft. If they were to quit and focus on pure art then they would likely earn far, far less and possibly spend less time making any kind of art commercial or not.

It reminds me of this survey that made the front page not long ago about author's that contained this illuminating paragraph:

> While 80% of respondents considered themselves to be professional authors, only 35% said they were full-time authors while 53% said they were part-time authors (with the balance being one-book authors or undecided). The primary writing occupation of part-time authors outside of publishing books was professor/academic (8.5%), followed by book illustrator/author (4.2%), editor (2.9%), poet (2.4%), journalist (2%), teacher (2%), and entrepreneur (1.5%).

So even people who consider themselves professional authors are unable to work at it full time. It makes sense, there's only so much one person can produce and it's quite difficult to find an audience willing to pay for what you make. This likely holds true across all professions i.e. you have to do the work that they want done and not the work that you want to do.

https://www.publishersweekly.com/pw/by-topic/industry-news/p...

Re: We need technology that is less immersive, not more

#52
Same thing regarding the utilities -- we need home electricity switcheable with a key/knob, not browsing it for a minute in a smartphone (yes, with phone full of running apps, and network hickups, it may take a minute). And we need public transit usable without any smartphone, not to make people look for the buses on a smartphone map (try pushing a stroller with a kid on a cold winter day and search for buses in an app).

Re: We need technology that is less immersive, not more

#53

"I hope you’ll agree that humanity has a variety of important engineering problems to solve, and nicer-looking graphics is quite low on that list." I used to sneer at the social value of entertainment. Then covid lockdowns hit. I spent a lot of time playing Factorio. When professional sports resumed playing (in empty stadiums, with fake crowd noise on the broadcasts) I was happy to sit on the couch after work and wat…

Even beyond entertainment, interacting with things that are aesthetically pleasing is fundamentally good for individuals and society.

Re: We need technology that is less immersive, not more

#54
post #20

What if I tell you everything around us is actually technology, we just dont understand it enough so we call it natural?

What if I tell you everything around us is actually magic, we just understand some of it well enough to call it technology?

Re: We need technology that is less immersive, not more

#55
Getting sucked into a dream-world/story/abstraction is a feature, not a bug.

It's an attention-conservation strategy. Looking at an abstraction takes less precious attention than looking at reality. And abstractions are so malleable, so useful.

You can do it with a page of text. You can do it with no technological augmentation at all, just thinking.

It's so easy and useful that it's become a habit. The border between dream and reality is so blurred now that we've forgotten that there's a difference.

Maybe this is what the Buddhists call "Samsara".

Re: We need technology that is less immersive, not more

#56

I used to work for a small business accounting software company. We used to talk about reducing the amount of time people use the product. Doing accounting is NOT what small business owners should be spending time on, and our goal was to reduce the amount of time spent. As the company got bigger, we started selling adjacent software, and suddenly time spent in the 'ecosystem' became an important factor for increasing…

The average American adult now spends 8.5 hours consuming digital media every day, including games. Most of it is probably consumed for entertainment purposes (news, social media etc. - social media's share averages to around 2.5 hours per day). Have we considered that maybe we're just spending too much time on entertainment? As opposed to doing things that actually make us better, like studying, practicing a skill o…

> Have we considered that maybe we're just spending too much time on entertainment?

No, I doubt it, unless you have some data that the advent of digital entertainment has changed our entertainment habits. (I think it's a separate question when it comes to social media + smartphones, which work very very hard to steal our attention.) People don't work all day long. Before we had digital media, people entertained themselves with social visits, theater, drinking, reading, meditation... basically all the things we still do outside of digital entertainment.

Re: We need technology that is less immersive, not more

#57
post #11

I rather missed the point where he explains why immersive games are bad. There's some hand-wavey bit about "[they] don’t teach them anything valuable about the real world, and don’t relax them at all" but that appears to be it. The first bit is beside the point and the second hugely debatable. Similar criticisms could equally be levelled at engaging with any creative output - reading, listening to music etc. And I lo…

Anything is more important than making entertainment. It’s literally the first thing to be sacrificed in times of crisis.

Re: We need technology that is less immersive, not more

#58

"I hope you’ll agree that humanity has a variety of important engineering problems to solve, and nicer-looking graphics is quite low on that list." I used to sneer at the social value of entertainment. Then covid lockdowns hit. I spent a lot of time playing Factorio. When professional sports resumed playing (in empty stadiums, with fake crowd noise on the broadcasts) I was happy to sit on the couch after work and wat…

It's such a neckbeardy sentiment. I could also drive the "functional" car that Homer designed in The Simpsons, but my psyche wouldn't survive a week.

Re: We need technology that is less immersive, not more

#59
as others have already suggested, i think the contrast of immersion vs no immersion is not really the issue (only as much as immersion helps people get addicted to games). the focus on entertainment and making a profit vs doing something to advance society is.

immersive games are fine. games aren't failing to teach anything or help you relax because they are immersive. they are not teaching anything because they don't have a good story that would teach something, and they don't let you relax because specific game elements are putting you under stress.

to give two examples: i play elite dangerous. i can travel through space with a VR headset and i trade items between various space stations. very immersive and quite relaxing, until pirates come along and want to steal my cargo. that's stressful. and i wish i could turn that off.

likewise i may play some puzzle game, that is not immersive at all, and that could be relaxing if the gamedesigner hadn't added a timer that forces me to complete the puzzle in a certain time. that's stressful.

so i don't think immersion has any impact here, other than immersive games are just more attractive. both are a waste of time however if they are not educational or relaxing.

but now this issue of entertainment vs advancing society is a problem of the whole entertainment industry. very little content produced is entertaining as well as teaching something.

and so for me the question is not about how immersive the games are but how educational. i believe it is quite possible to create fully immersive but educational games.

looking back at elite dangerous again, for example, the universe in that game is modeled after our actual galaxy. where possible, stars are named by their actual astronomical names, and their looks are designed after what we know about them and i can take a star system in the game and look up its name on eg wikipedia and learn real facts about it. compare that to eve online where the universe is completely fictional. in elite dangerous i can fly around and get a sense of the relative distances of say alpha centauri vs the north pole star or of the position of our solar system vs the rest of the galaxy. (assuming that it is all accurate)

immersive and educational and relaxing (as long as i can avoid pirates)

Re: We need technology that is less immersive, not more

#60
post #15

While sitting with my iPad typing the other morning, something about the experience struck me in a way that it never had before. I've been typing since the early 90s, and can type around 120WPM without looking or thinking about it, and it hit me that in a very real sense, the iPad (and other computing devices) are already an extension of me. I've invested the time to integrate this hardware into my brain via the keyb…

For anyone more interested in this general topic, in philosophy of mind, this is referred to as “the extended mind” using the terminology of Andy Clark and David Chalmers in their famous 1998 paper of the same name.
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