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Why America hates its children

businessinsider.com

51–60 of 66 posts

Re: Why America hates its children

#51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does that upset you? Children should be protected against airborne transmittable sickness. Also, we are still in COVID it's not over.

It's well documented that 1) children are/were barely affected by COVID, and 2) mask caused more problems, especially for younger kids who are learning to speak, and need to be able to see facial expressions. COVID is around, and always will be. And "protecting" causes more harm and weakens the development of the immune system. All well known and common sense stuff, to those who don't live in fear of merely getting s…

Merely getting sick is a wild oversimplification. My parents just got sick for the first time with it. 7 vaccines in. Yeah they didn't die but I personally don't want to get what they got. My long distance GF got it and her athletic cardio endurance is markedly worse.

Guess what prevented me from getting sick last time I was in the car with my father just days before he tested positive? I was wearing a mask.

Mask and get your vaccines and boosters and limit exposure. For everyone!

Re: Why America hates its children

#52
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We don't actually know that children were barely affected by covid. Covid is a pretty unknown disease in the long term. It could be like chicken pox which looked harmless in children until a few decades later with shingles. Maybe we'll find out that having young co-relates with later adult outcomes like how having multiple serious bouts of the flu qas corelated with mental decline. We don't even know if covid would b…

Pascal's wager. Masking and isolating children has a known cost, your speculative consequences don't

Sure they do: children might live lives of weakness and disability, even die.

That risk elicits a disproportionate response in rational people. Dismissing it is useless.

Re: Why America hates its children

#53
post #31
post #4

So this article goes on for paragraphs blaming republicans and evangelicals and the red scare and slavery. But why do democrats (apparently) hate their children as well? After all, education is 90% funded by states and municipalities. That’s not unique to the US—education is a local issue everywhere from Sweden to Canada to Germany. Why are schools falling apart in Baltimore and Chicago? Why aren’t social services fo…

She quotes Manchin as well, a Democrat, right? Why isn't education funded at the federal level? Feels like something so expensive, should be funded at the federal level, not just regulated there, and not when federal income taxes dwarf state tax options.

How is state vs federal funding relevant here? What is the point that you are trying make? Im confused here. That we needs the Feds to slash enormous school budgets in failing places like NYC, Baltimore or Chicago, to the levels seen in more successful places like Idaho which have lower budgets?

Re: Why America hates its children

#54
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Idaho has a small fraction of the population and diversity of those other places. Their challenges are significantly easier. One of the states rayiner cited Idaho as outperforming is Delaware. Idaho does not have a "small fraction" of the population of Delaware, it has almost twice Delware's population It is also unclear why, above a certain minimum, population in itself should make any significant difference to a…

> As population scales, other relevant factors (such as student and teacher numbers and size of budgets) should scale proportionately – and if they don't, then we've identified a relevant explanatory factor other than population. American cities and suburbs are so low density that they end up losing money because infrastructure is spread out over such a large area that taxes collected per square mile aren't enough to…

> American cities and suburbs are so low density that they end up losing money because infrastructure is spread out over such a large area that taxes collected per square mile aren't enough to keep things working.

This is very much false. I don’t know why this misinformation is so widespread, but even a glance look at the municipal budgets is enough to see the facts contradict it. The typical suburb only spends around 10% of its budget on infrastructure, and this spend is dwarfed by educational spending by a lot.

Re: Why America hates its children

#55
post #54
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As population scales, other relevant factors (such as student and teacher numbers and size of budgets) should scale proportionately – and if they don't, then we've identified a relevant explanatory factor other than population. American cities and suburbs are so low density that they end up losing money because infrastructure is spread out over such a large area that taxes collected per square mile aren't enough to…

> American cities and suburbs are so low density that they end up losing money because infrastructure is spread out over such a large area that taxes collected per square mile aren't enough to keep things working. This is very much false. I don’t know why this misinformation is so widespread, but even a glance look at the municipal budgets is enough to see the facts contradict it. The typical suburb only spends aroun…

It depends on the age of the suburb/city.

Newer areas do fine. Infrastructure eventually needs not just maintenance, but massive replacement.

Roads, bridges, sewer systems, all start to fall down. Ideally a city would estimate the worst cost of replacement at the time infrastructure is first built, and set aside money from year 1 such that the replacement cost is fully funded when the roads/pipes/bridges wear out.

If that ever does happen (and maybe it has happened a couple times in history) what will end up happening is some candidate for city council comes along and says they can reduce taxes, just vote'em in, and now all of a sudden the "50 year in the future replacement fund" is no more.

There is of course the economic argument that saving money in the bank with crap interest rates is terrible finances, and that it is in fact better for the city to just borrow 50 years hence, but the counter argument is that low interests were a recent anomaly in US history.

(The investment options cities have for where they can save money for 50 year later projects are fairly limited, which is another point against cities saving money up).

Now, a bit ironically, large condo and townhome associations in many cities are required to have savings sufficient for future expenses. These laws were passed because without the backing of "the city is making us" board members on HOAs will quickly get kicked out the second they propose a budget that actually covers future expenses. In cities that don't mandate responsible reserve funds on the part of HOAs, what you find is tons of complexes are underfunded because despite having a (mandated by law) prepared document of future expenses, the can is just kicked down the road.

(cities do have reserve funding, but rarely do those take into account all future infra needs)

> The typical suburb only spends around 10% of its budget on infrastructure, and this spend is dwarfed by educational spending by a lot.

I opened the budget for the city of Kirkland WA[1], which is obscenely well run financially (they regularly run a surplus despite Washington state having a law capping properly tax increases are below inflation levels, a law which has slowly starved many cities of funding), and capital projects are over 25% of the budget. Just water and sewer appears to be around 13% of the city's overall budget.

Looking at Seattle's budget, a city that other countries would call "low density" (and honestly, in some countries Seattle is small enough that it wouldn't even be considered a major city!) of a nearly 6 billion dollar budget, 2 billion is spent on utilities. As someone who lives in Seattle, I can attest that one of the current problems we face is our sewer system is way behind the times and needs lots of updating, but again, no money.

Shoreline WA [2], 22% of the budget goes towards utilities ($82.809m), about 38% goes towards capital projects ($136.065m).

Washington State is actually a bit odd in that district funding largely comes from the state, by way of property taxes, but even so let's compare the funding for schools to the rest of a city's budget.

Shoreline School District has a budget of around 160 million [3], which is less than the city spends on utilities + capital projects.

Is it a huge chunk of the city's budget? Yeah. But by no means do educational expenses dwarf other city expenses.

[1] https://www.kirklandwa.gov/files/sharedassets/public/v/2/fin...

[2]https://www.shorelinewa.gov/home/showpublisheddocument/57270...

[3]https://resources.finalsite.net/images/v1694655298/shoreline...

Re: Why America hates its children

#56
post #55
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> American cities and suburbs are so low density that they end up losing money because infrastructure is spread out over such a large area that taxes collected per square mile aren't enough to keep things working. This is very much false. I don’t know why this misinformation is so widespread, but even a glance look at the municipal budgets is enough to see the facts contradict it. The typical suburb only spends aroun…

It depends on the age of the suburb/city. Newer areas do fine. Infrastructure eventually needs not just maintenance, but massive replacement. Roads, bridges, sewer systems, all start to fall down. Ideally a city would estimate the worst cost of replacement at the time infrastructure is first built, and set aside money from year 1 such that the replacement cost is fully funded when the roads/pipes/bridges wear out. If…

What you are not considering here, is that in many states, school districts are separate special-purpose local governments, independent from the county or municipality, with their own separate elections, governing bodies, budgets, taxing and borrowing powers. So how much the county or municipality is spending on whatever has no direct impact on how much the school district has to spend. It is possible for the county or municipality to go bankrupt due to financial mismanagement, even while the school districts are in good financial shape.

Re: Why America hates its children

#57
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends on the age of the suburb/city. Newer areas do fine. Infrastructure eventually needs not just maintenance, but massive replacement. Roads, bridges, sewer systems, all start to fall down. Ideally a city would estimate the worst cost of replacement at the time infrastructure is first built, and set aside money from year 1 such that the replacement cost is fully funded when the roads/pipes/bridges wear out. If…

What you are not considering here, is that in many states, school districts are separate special-purpose local governments, independent from the county or municipality, with their own separate elections, governing bodies, budgets, taxing and borrowing powers. So how much the county or municipality is spending on whatever has no direct impact on how much the school district has to spend. It is possible for the county…

I was replying to the statement that education spending dwarfs infra spending, by providing evidence that the two are on par with each other.

Around where I live, schools are in financial troubles, and infra is in financial trouble, nothing is doing well.

West Coast cities are older (rising costs) while also being low to medium density (low tax base) and honestly outside of LA and SF, don't even have a large population for how much area they take up.

It isn't a great combo.

In regards to city vs school funding, the two are separated in WA state because of how schools are funded, except that cities pass special levies to fill funding gaps, which is a separate political problem.

Of course city residents rarely understand how funding works, and they yell at the city council when schools start falling apart. (Quite a few of the public schools I went to had broken heating and crumbing walls, and from what I grok, the financial situation of the district was better back then compared to now!)

Re: Why America hates its children

#58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pascal's wager. Masking and isolating children has a known cost, your speculative consequences don't

Sure they do: children might live lives of weakness and disability, even die. That risk elicits a disproportionate response in rational people. Dismissing it is useless.

I'll dismiss it until the risk is quantified, because all I've heard is "might" and "maybe" when it comes to long term effects. Then compare that quantified risk to the precautions required to avoid being infected (i.e. a lot more than what was done, because everyone still got it) and there's your actual rational response.

Re: Why America hates its children

#59
post #53
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She quotes Manchin as well, a Democrat, right? Why isn't education funded at the federal level? Feels like something so expensive, should be funded at the federal level, not just regulated there, and not when federal income taxes dwarf state tax options.

How is state vs federal funding relevant here? What is the point that you are trying make? Im confused here. That we needs the Feds to slash enormous school budgets in failing places like NYC, Baltimore or Chicago, to the levels seen in more successful places like Idaho which have lower budgets?

Midwestern states get farming subsidies. I know several people in the Midwest who, after making snarky comments about West Coast schools, will you l happily take that $1000+/mo check, people that don't have kids. If the federal government is going to regulate the schools, as they do, discussing whether they should help pay for it out of the enormous federal budget seems relevant to me. I can think of a lot of different ways I would rather spend money on, like schools, than on the military and health care system, things that disproportionately benefit certain states (not saying those are all Midwestern states!). But, let's not stop having conversations about where and how money is spent.

Re: Why America hates its children

#60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure they do: children might live lives of weakness and disability, even die. That risk elicits a disproportionate response in rational people. Dismissing it is useless.

I'll dismiss it until the risk is quantified, because all I've heard is "might" and "maybe" when it comes to long term effects. Then compare that quantified risk to the precautions required to avoid being infected (i.e. a lot more than what was done, because everyone still got it) and there's your actual rational response.

Again, go ahead and dismiss it. And see how far you get. Zero, that's how far.
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