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How Japan Airlines crew led 367 passengers to safety from a burning plane

reuters.com

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Re: How Japan Airlines crew led 367 passengers to safety from a burning plane

#51

Post by Someone »

peter422 wrote: post #12
steveBK123 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Arguably looking out the window and realizing they were in the Hudson River might have lead them to realize they weren't going to be swimming with their wheelie.

The U.S. is a very punitive society and I think if you were to find yourself in the tarmac after an evacuation holding onto your carry on, you’d at minimum be getting a large fine for disobeying a flight attendant and possibly more. Not being in the Hudson isn’t going to change the fact that you are ending up in the middle of nowhere once you are off the plane.

In such situations, people won’t think about that.

What I’ve read, the reason people taking their carry-on at least partly is because, when having to get out of a plane in a stressful situation, they won’t think “what shall I do now.”, but just activate their “deboard plane” program, and that involves getting their bags before getting out of the plane.

Re: How Japan Airlines crew led 367 passengers to safety from a burning plane

#52

Post by Someone »

oliv__ wrote: post #18
Freak_NL wrote: post #3

I am inclined to think that this exact same scenario featuring a plane full of not Japanese, but, say, Dutch, English, or Americans, would not have resulted in a full evacuation in 18 minutes; possibly with casualties. Obeying commands as a group in a high-pressure situation? That takes a lifetime of living in a culture where this is normal. A group of military passengers (any nationality) would probably have worked…

18 minutes seems like a hell of a long time to get out of a damn burning plane I've never been to Japan but in the US people are standing and ready to exit as soon as the plane docks to the airport so I can imagine people running for their lives in this scenario. 5 minutes at most would seem more understandable

People running for their lives likely will increase the time to get everybody out.

Two people might try to get out of an exit door simultaneously, or someone might push over another passenger to get to the exit door, making those behind them trip over the fallen passenger, etc.

Re: How Japan Airlines crew led 367 passengers to safety from a burning plane

#53

Post by ExMachina73 »

eesmith wrote: post #50
ExMachina73 wrote: post #24

Seems that an overriding "lock all overhead storage" mechanism and control in the cockpit would be useful in these situations. Forced compliance would save lives. Granted some stow baggage under the seats, but I think an override would still be beneficial.

Which means running extra wires, and special locking hardware, all of which can break so calls for additional maintenance. And when it does break, you've got people in the aisle wanting their carry-ons - which may include medicine or other essential items - so you need to train the cabin crew on how to manage that situation. If power goes out in-flight, which does happen, do the storage bins stay locked, or do they f…

You make some good points, however I'm referring specifically to an evacuation situation on the ground due to fire, explosion, sinking or imminent destruction of the aircraft, where disembarking as soon as humanly possible is preferred.

Re: How Japan Airlines crew led 367 passengers to safety from a burning plane

#54

Post by tim333 »

mmkos wrote: post #27
dvngnt_ wrote: post #7

Was the initial cause of the collision human error? i was on r/singularity and people were saying that pilots should be replaced with AI, but what about if something goes wrong? wouldn't it be better to have a human takeover in emergency situations? but i also wonder if automation would have prevented the initial collision.

Of course it was because of a human error. A passenger plane landed on a runway that already had another plane on it. At least have a proper alerting system in place, we've had the tech for decades, you don't even need AI for any of it... but changes in commercial aviation unfortunately seem to be driven by accidents more than forethought.

I'm not sure what existing tech would have saved things? It seems the problem was the smaller plane was told to wait at a holding point and said ok but thought he could take off for some reason.

Re: How Japan Airlines crew led 367 passengers to safety from a burning plane

#55

Post by tim333 »

ImAnAmateur wrote: post #14
quasse wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aeroflot Flight 1492 is a perfect example of this. Passengers were actively working to get carry-on bags down the emergency slide as 41 people were burning to death in the back of the plane.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeroflot_Flight_1492 https://www.flightglobal.com/analysis/analysis-superjet-fire... Made for interesting reading. I think that it's possible that one more life could have been saved without those carry-on bags. That's a responsibility the passangers and crew both share.

The Russians seem to have an unusual attitude to human life, currently illustrated by the tens of thousands being killed in Ukraine for no particularly good reason. The reaction seems to be

>Putin urges Russian women to have ‘eight or more’ children... https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/vladimir-put...

rather than avoiding it all by going home and having a cup of tea or some such.

Re: How Japan Airlines crew led 367 passengers to safety from a burning plane

#56

Post by eesmith »

ExMachina73 wrote: post #53
eesmith wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which means running extra wires, and special locking hardware, all of which can break so calls for additional maintenance. And when it does break, you've got people in the aisle wanting their carry-ons - which may include medicine or other essential items - so you need to train the cabin crew on how to manage that situation. If power goes out in-flight, which does happen, do the storage bins stay locked, or do they f…

You make some good points, however I'm referring specifically to an evacuation situation on the ground due to fire, explosion, sinking or imminent destruction of the aircraft, where disembarking as soon as humanly possible is preferred.

Sure. I'm pointing out how enabling your scenario may have negative consequences for other scenarios, and the difficulty of determining if it's justifiable.

Re: How Japan Airlines crew led 367 passengers to safety from a burning plane

#57

Post by jase321 »

Freak_NL wrote: post #3

I am inclined to think that this exact same scenario featuring a plane full of not Japanese, but, say, Dutch, English, or Americans, would not have resulted in a full evacuation in 18 minutes; possibly with casualties. Obeying commands as a group in a high-pressure situation? That takes a lifetime of living in a culture where this is normal. A group of military passengers (any nationality) would probably have worked…

I have taken countless Delta and UA flights. I can attest 100%, had this scenarios happened on those flights, near death certainty for those passengers. 90sec from my years of observations not doable by ANY Delta or UA flights unless maybe small 737 with maybe a third full. Their crews and the type of passengers they have guarantee death in this kind of situation. Heck even if you give them 10 mins instead of 90sec, they still will not make it all out.

Re: How Japan Airlines crew led 367 passengers to safety from a burning plane

#58

Post by uranusjr »

wasm123 wrote: post #41
semi-extrinsic wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What, specifically, do you think requires a strong man in this case? Airplane overwing exit doors come in two types. The ones that you fully detach and throw out, which weigh less than the average passenger's suitcase [1]. The larger and heavier ones are spring-assisted so you can literally open them with one hand while seated [2]. [1] https://youtu.be/RCFzEg-t_Bk?si=xACVKqIvakrrJnaT at 0:25 [2] https://youtu.be/ZW4x…

To me it seems the biggest dangers about exit doors are not accidents. But someone who snaps and wants to open the exit door during take off/landing where the outside air pressure is low enough to more easily open the door. In this kind of situation a strong man doesn't hurt.

This happened just last year IIRC in Korea. Nothing was in serious danger (except maybe some travel schedules). A comment already described the mechanism and why that’s not really a thing to worry about.

Re: How Japan Airlines crew led 367 passengers to safety from a burning plane

#59

Post by anticensor »

peter422 wrote: post #12
steveBK123 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Arguably looking out the window and realizing they were in the Hudson River might have lead them to realize they weren't going to be swimming with their wheelie.

The U.S. is a very punitive society and I think if you were to find yourself in the tarmac after an evacuation holding onto your carry on, you’d at minimum be getting a large fine for disobeying a flight attendant and possibly more. Not being in the Hudson isn’t going to change the fact that you are ending up in the middle of nowhere once you are off the plane.

Then, the planes should be fitted with pilot-commanded overhead baggage locks.

Re: How Japan Airlines crew led 367 passengers to safety from a burning plane

#60

Post by anticensor »

eesmith wrote: post #50
ExMachina73 wrote: post #24

Seems that an overriding "lock all overhead storage" mechanism and control in the cockpit would be useful in these situations. Forced compliance would save lives. Granted some stow baggage under the seats, but I think an override would still be beneficial.

Which means running extra wires, and special locking hardware, all of which can break so calls for additional maintenance. And when it does break, you've got people in the aisle wanting their carry-ons - which may include medicine or other essential items - so you need to train the cabin crew on how to manage that situation. If power goes out in-flight, which does happen, do the storage bins stay locked, or do they f…

They should fail-safe to locked, to allow loading checked baggage from different customs areas into carry-on baggage compartments.
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