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The difference between a programmer & a hacker

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Re: The difference between a programmer & a hacker

#51

Post by kstenerud »

Peroni wrote: post #13
zalew wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a deep secret of HR most of us programmers don't know of or understand - CVs are often printed on paper and transfered to other desks by hand. While it'd be exciting for a nerd to receive, in a traditional HR dept such a 'nano-cv' or what you call it will quickly become a piece of garbage just as it hits the printer.

To be fair, if you are applying to a HR contact, then traditional is the way to go. I'd only ever recommend the use of 'nano' CV's if you can directly contact the person who makes the final decision.

Do a CV even if you're not applying to a HR contact. The CV has one purpose: To give the salient points of why you are the right person for the job.

A good startup is absolutely swamped by resumes. The less I have to hunt around for info about you, the better (remember: I don't know you from crappy-developer-x. Make it easy for me to differentiate!). I want to know what skills you consider relevant to the job, and how proficient you are in them. I want to know where you've worked before, what you did, and for how long. I don't want a bunch of URLS I have to click through, then navigate a bunch of sites, only to discover that you're a web developer with no Objective-C experience applying for an iOS position.

Once I have the essential info to decide that you at least have the basic skills for the job, THEN I want to see blogs, github accounts, etc.

Re: The difference between a programmer & a hacker

#52

Post by daly »

MatthewPhillips wrote: post #26
daly wrote: post #21

Well, not quite. I read a recent post that said that people over 35 should find other things to do with their life. Mark Zuckerberg is quoted as saying that young people are just better. Japanese companies won't hire programmers over 35. The programming business has somehow become the new "fashion" industry. Everybody wants "ninja rock stars" (somewhat a contradiction in terms I think). As someone who is a programmer…

Please don't be so polite. If a company is discriminating against "older" programmers, please call them out by name so the rest of us know to avoid them.

The exact phrase is "We don't think you will fit in to our culture". I won't name names for two reasons. First, I'd likely get a law suit. Second, the attitude is pervasive. Recent post-graduates doing first level "filter interviews" asking questions from their recent algorithms class. The process is optimized toward new graduates. "What's the average order of mergesort?" kind of nonsense. In 41 years of daily programming I've never had to code a sort routine. I have spoken to Tarjan about computing the order of the Rete algorithm but I don't think the Rete is covered in the college courses... and who ever heard of Tarjan anyway?

Sadly, this means that we will continue to repeat the same mistakes "for the first time". Knuth's literate programming, Alan Kay's Meta insights, Chandy and Misra's parallel work, and other fundamental quality gains will have to wait for another generation, assuming that generation ever gets its chance.

What I see are languages without standards "evolving". That is, they are making all old inventions but badly (e.g. Python has "closures" but only 1 liners. What a joke.) They "abstract away" complexity but badly (e.g. Ruby has gems but you have no idea what the ruby stack is really doing.). This is much different from Alan Kay's abstraction. To quote Stroustrop "C++11 is a whole new language!" And MapReduce as an "invention". Oh, please. The list goes on.

The worst part is the stupid hiring games meme. Solve our puzzle! Take our quiz! Show us your blog! How many angels can dance on the head of a pin? Make sliding colored blocks on web pages!

Experience is a valuable asset in most professions but is looked down upon in programming. Unless, of course, your experience is "exact"... "oh, we need an Oracle 10.3 database guru with stored procedure experience".

If you want to know what companies to avoid... look for the ones that emphasize "culture'.

Re: The difference between a programmer & a hacker

#54

Post by [deleted] »

abulman wrote: post #2

I've occasionally taken to send out a 'nano' CV - with my contact details, a paragraph of text and 3 URLs. My Stackoverflow account, Github, and my tech blog. I've also been responsible for hiring developers over the last five years and if I saw something like that, and there was anything useful to see on those links, the person would be at the top of the shortlist. The only time I ever came close to it - I offered t…

[deleted]

Re: The difference between a programmer & a hacker

#55

Post by hackinthebochs »

This is exactly the problem with hiring. No one can take their ego out of the equation. Every single one of these 'hiring hacks' stems from our deep-seated desire to see ourselves as one of the "10x programmers". So we look for the same thing on other people to validate ourselves. When we're in a position to hire, we hire people who match our own particular quirks, re-enforcing the idea that we're one of the best. All of these subjective hiring hacks mean absolutely bullocks.

Re: The difference between a programmer & a hacker

#56

Post by eli_gottlieb »

kstenerud wrote: post #48
VolatileVoid wrote: post #29

This bothers me. I consider myself very passionate about programming - I think most people who know me would consider me to be a hacker. That said, I work for a company that does not allow its code to be open-sourced. The job is demanding and after I put in 60+ hours a week, I simply feel worn out. On top of that, I have an 8 month old son which means that my sleep is fragmented at the best of times. If you're unwill…

Here's the problem from the company's perspective: You get thousands of resumes, and you can't possibly call every one of them. So you try to find ways to build a funnel, hoping that your heuristics are weeding out the majority of those who are unsuitable for the position and keeping the majority of those who are suitable. It's not that the company is being a dick, or that they don't value the candidate's time; it's…

If there is such a scarcity of software engineers as companies claim, then what haystack?

Re: The difference between a programmer & a hacker

#57

Post by eli_gottlieb »

daly wrote: post #52
MatthewPhillips wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don't be so polite. If a company is discriminating against "older" programmers, please call them out by name so the rest of us know to avoid them.

The exact phrase is "We don't think you will fit in to our culture". I won't name names for two reasons. First, I'd likely get a law suit. Second, the attitude is pervasive. Recent post-graduates doing first level "filter interviews" asking questions from their recent algorithms class. The process is optimized toward new graduates. "What's the average order of mergesort?" kind of nonsense. In 41 years of daily progra…

I agree with everything you just wrote, and I'm 23.

Either something's wrong with me, or something's wrong with this profession.

Re: The difference between a programmer & a hacker

#58

Post by eli_gottlieb »

r0s wrote: post #39

I'm a junior level web developer in my first year at a salary job for such. I'm self taught and motivated, with a good CV and lots of completed projects under my belt. Now it's become obvious my work has a serious visibility problem. Still pulling less-than-average wages, I asked my employer for a performance review which resulted in above average praise. Naturally I'm curious about the difference between my work and…

who do I think I am to walk in and demand wages consummate with my output?

You're the one producing the output. Duh.

Re: The difference between a programmer & a hacker

#59

Post by JamesLeonis »

I see a lot of discussion over the Github comments. I understand the merits of having an account with some code on it, as well as the restrictions of corporations and time that prevent many people from maintaining a repository. However this is a red herring.

The problem is visibility.

The resume is very poor at showcasing your talents. All the common resume advice makes yours hard to differentiate from everybody else's. While having a website, Github, Bitbucket, or something else will help your case, you are already hobbled by the very generic-ness of the resume format. You can play with the fonts and format, but I've found that it's a fine balance between the "Pop" factor and annoying the reader.

The other major problem with the resume is they are very low cost in terms of those applying. A unscrupulous candidate can send out hundreds of resumes to shotgun his chances at landing a job. The time it takes to vet out these is many times higher for the hiring party, and it is multiplied by the number of resumes to vet. Companies must then increase the cost of applying, either through coding tests or puzzles, but this paradoxically turns away candidates who might be qualified and don't have the time. This is especially true for small startups who have problems with visibility of their own.

To me, the question isn't Github use or having a website, but how can I increase my visibility? Being physically present in front of people who are hiring is so ridiculously powerful, that most hires are made that way. Thus, obviously, meetups/networking/hackathons are a giant step in the right direction, but not everybody is in the correct neighborhood and can't casually attend. For those of us that aren't local, how can we disrupt the email->resume->round-file process that effectively dehumanizes most applicants?

I am warming up to short video submissions because of their ability to show the personality and creativity of the individual behind all the credentials. It allows for both a quick introduction, as well as introducing a subtle time cost, on behalf of the applicant and it doesn't add significant (as far as I know) time to the hiring manager.

On the other hand, maybe the hiring process is an NP-Hard problem.

Re: The difference between a programmer & a hacker

#60

Post by hackinthebochs »

drunkpotato wrote: post #22
Peroni wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do understand your frustation and to be perfectly honest, I hear the same concern constantly . The fact is, if you're truly passionate about something, you'll find the time. I work a 60 hour week and I have a 2 year old boy and an impatient wife at home yet I find the time to dedicate at least a couple of hours a week to blogs, news, forums and so on and I can sincerely say that it doesn't have any significant impa…

I understand the frustration of trying to find talent in a sea of uselessness. (Not even mediocrity: I've interviewed candidates who could not explain a for loop, how to write one, or when to use one.) However, you are trying to take your version of passion and project it onto everyone else, and I think that is harmful. If gwat is working 9-8 and in love with their job, they are passionate and don't need a github to…

I agree completely. It's pure ego: a "true hacker" is someone who is exactly like me.
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