Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

California DMV Digital ID Pilot Program

dmv.ca.gov

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 95 posts

Re: California DMV Digital ID Pilot Program

#51

Post by homefree »

ezxs wrote: post #27

I got it when it was in limited beta. It's underwhelming. First problem is that it's another app on your phone instead of using the Wallet app. It's not clear why you wouldn't just use the Android/Apple app. The second problem is that even the SFO airport doesn't take them as legitimate IDs. For the folks who are worried about giving your phone to the cop - I guess I am not worried about it much. The cop has the righ…

Not using the Apple wallet app is a huge bummer. I assumed after approval I’d be able to add it to Apple wallet, is that not the case?

Re: California DMV Digital ID Pilot Program

#52

Post by paxys »

bri3d wrote: post #30

The Estonian e-ID system and Qualified Electronic Signature in the EU are good ideas. The government issues you a signed identity. You can use that signed identity to counter-sign challenges in places you'd otherwise (in the US) need to use a Social Security Number and a convoluted private market identity-verification system (for example, the stupid "were you associated with this address 4.5 years ago" things). Like…

Stuff like this is rarely worth the cost or effort to implement in the US because like 1% of the population will ever end up using it. We are talking about a country where 1 in 5 households still don't have (and don't want) internet.

Re: California DMV Digital ID Pilot Program

#53

Post by akerl_ »

ezxs wrote: post #27

I got it when it was in limited beta. It's underwhelming. First problem is that it's another app on your phone instead of using the Wallet app. It's not clear why you wouldn't just use the Android/Apple app. The second problem is that even the SFO airport doesn't take them as legitimate IDs. For the folks who are worried about giving your phone to the cop - I guess I am not worried about it much. The cop has the righ…

If you hand the cop your unlocked phone, and they hop over from the ID app to other apps and find evidence they think implicates you in a crime, what happens?

If you hand the cop your phone, and then say “hey I need that back to call my lawyer” and they say “Sorry, no, I need to keep this for processing”, what happens?

There are cases every day where cops are just outright wrong about the law, your rights, or their own department’s policies. The law protects them from being either criminally or civilly implicated in most of those cases, because they’re not expected to be experts in the law. For most purposes, to have a case against a law enforcement officer for violating your rights, you’d need to show that their behavior was so egregious that it was crystal clear they should have known their action was a violation of your rights. And courts have looked very favorably on LEOs historically in this context: things that to a lay person would count as “obvious” have not met that bar.

So while you may, after spending a pile of money, time, and energy, find out that yes, the police officer overstepped, you’ve still been severely impacted by their action.

Re: California DMV Digital ID Pilot Program

#54

Post by vlovich123 »

bri3d wrote: post #30

The Estonian e-ID system and Qualified Electronic Signature in the EU are good ideas. The government issues you a signed identity. You can use that signed identity to counter-sign challenges in places you'd otherwise (in the US) need to use a Social Security Number and a convoluted private market identity-verification system (for example, the stupid "were you associated with this address 4.5 years ago" things). Like…

This says mDL. The QR code is at most a cryptographically signed attestation of relevant attributes (eg age, name, etc). Not sure if this made it in, but originally the ISO group had been talking about also signing >18/>21 of sharing the actual birthday for things like restricted sales. I don’t recall discussing QR codes as it was supposed to be NFC but maybe that changed (don’t see a mention of QR codes on the site). Having a dedicated app always struck me as the wrong experience but I think that’ll get sorted and Apple and Google should integrate it into their wallets.

We’re quite close as a society to not needing a wallet at all and instead it’s sufficient to have your phone or smart watch with you. Modern iPhones conceivably can even have a dead battery and still provide your ID information.

Btw this is an ISO standard that has good participation from relevant regulatory bodies for some of the largest countries so this will be the standard everyone adopts.

Re: California DMV Digital ID Pilot Program

#55

Post by overstay8930 »

bkishan wrote: post #39
localghost3000 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the thing I think most people aren’t thinking about. I promise you the police either have or are cooking up a way as we speak to image the entire contents of your phone when you hand it to them. Until we get some laws in place around this stuff, no way.

Not from the US, so help me understand here, why would a traffic cop looking to verify a license want to image the entire contents of your phone?

They don't, but I'm sure there are some who are salivating at the thought of using traffic stops to simplify collecting evidence.

Re: California DMV Digital ID Pilot Program

#56

Post by akerl_ »

rahimnathwani wrote: post #50
ezxs wrote: post #27

I got it when it was in limited beta. It's underwhelming. First problem is that it's another app on your phone instead of using the Wallet app. It's not clear why you wouldn't just use the Android/Apple app. The second problem is that even the SFO airport doesn't take them as legitimate IDs. For the folks who are worried about giving your phone to the cop - I guess I am not worried about it much. The cop has the righ…

"It's not clear why you wouldn't just use the Android/Apple app" The QR code changes each time you open it. So you can't just screenshot it. I guess that's the same reason why you can't add it to Google wallet.

This feels like a weird pitch. Yes, the way it works right now is that it loads a fresh QR code every time. But that’s a design choice they made, and they could make a different one. We’ve managed to make secure payments work using phone Wallets, and for those, the phone is performing a handshake with the reader as opposed to sending fixed, static credentials. Likewise, when I add an airline ticket to my Wallet, it automatically updates periodically if my gate or flight time change. Why wouldn’t we be able to find a similar solution here?

Re: California DMV Digital ID Pilot Program

#57

Post by hakfoo »

To me, the killer feature of a paper identification document is that it just works.

I've been in an accident. They're trying to figure out who I am for whatever reason (i. e. to hopefully tell my family what happened). The paper card still works. The phone may have been damaged, had the battery go flat, or be locked and they can't guess the PIN. I'd rather they just look at the paper card.

Similarly, if I get pulled over, the cop knows what to do with a paper card, and it's not suddenly going to do something like flash a push notification, or lock the phone because he pressed the wrong button, and escalate the situation.

The problems this solves are both questionable:

1. I can load all my stuff onto my phone and don't need to carry a wallet! Good for you, honey. Frankly, retooling government infrastructure to satisfy an aesthetic pet peeve is sort of a waste of money. Worst case, get one of those fold-open cases with slots for cards, because you're going to have some card that can't be digitized anyway, even if it's the "collect 12 punches and get a free taco" card.

2. It might allow us to generate some "yes this person is over 18" display without leaking the home address. That's assuming that it gets built properly, and consumed properly. We've seen, well, every app in the world. Nobody is going to be selective with permissions when they can ask the moon, and people are generally not in a situation to negotiate over it.

Re: California DMV Digital ID Pilot Program

#58

Post by Tagbert »

localghost3000 wrote: post #22
anonuser123456 wrote: post #20

I played around with it. Not worth while at this point. Too many privacy risks (e.g. requires you hand over your phone to police unlocked).

This is the thing I think most people aren’t thinking about. I promise you the police either have or are cooking up a way as we speak to image the entire contents of your phone when you hand it to them. Until we get some laws in place around this stuff, no way.

This is exactly the scenario that Apple’s proposed ID solution addresses. Not sure why California chose to go at it alone.

Re: California DMV Digital ID Pilot Program

#59

Post by dpedu »

I can't seem to get past the setup phase where the app "scans" your face via your phone's camera. A dozen attempts, different backgrounds and lighting and I keep getting "try again". Loving this AI-powered future we're in.
Post reply on HN