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Croatia could be Europe's hidden tech haven in 2024

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Re: Croatia could be Europe's hidden tech haven in 2024

#51

Post by foobarian »

jq-r wrote: post #45
foobarian wrote: post #3

It's like California but with Roman emperor's palaces and Habsburg vacation homes strewn around the shoreline. Happy to see this trend and hope it continues.

As a citizen I hope not. In the last 10-15 years the whole coast and islands got overbuilt with local and foreign owned buildings. The construction prices multiplied because of the difference in buying power. Why would a construction company work for a local investor for X amount of money if they can work for a German investor for multiples of X? So a lot of young people emigrated as they got priced out of everything…

It's very ironic that that pattern is what we had before the communist takeover.

The current times are a tough spot for the country. The communist-era manufacturing infrastructure was not sustainable in current times of consolidation and specialization, so as much as we hated to see Torpedo go and with 3rd May struggling, tourism so far was the best plan B. But what if tech could become plan C that doesn't have the seasonality problems, and helps the local citizens? I really hope so.

Re: Croatia could be Europe's hidden tech haven in 2024

#52

Post by brnt »

nazgob wrote: post #22
brnt wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't know mate, seems to me Europe controls a, maybe the, major component of tech through ASML. If they decide you can't buy their machines anymore, then good luck with your home grown chips on 10+ year old lithography.

Whenever there is a comment about EU doing not great tech wise there is somebody mentioning ASML or Mistral. This is not very productive.

What's next, people pointing to Google and Apple when talking of Big Tech?

Re: Croatia could be Europe's hidden tech haven in 2024

#53

Post by jacquesm »

woah wrote: post #30
jacquesm wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any article that mentions Europe either directly or in passing will attract at least a couple of comments that mention 'regulation' and how everything is going down the drain here. It's all bs but that doesn't seem to stop the influx of these comments, in this case from a brave novelty account no less.

One quick example: Germany has a 3 month required severance period. So if you are doing something where funding may be uncertain, a German employee is somewhat risky. A startup in California that fails to raise funding can cut staff and take another swing in 6 months. In Germany, this is less likely. You could just budget for this up front and sock away 1/4 salary for every hire, but along with the employer taxes, th…

An alternative viewpoint for you to consider: Germany recognizes that employing someone is much more a risk for the employer than for the employee. So they protect the employee's interest. That there are countries where employees have fewer rights gives the employers in those countries and edge, but that's only because there is a 'race to the bottom' element here.

In spite of all that Germany is an economic powerhouse and even if the companies don't make profits as ridiculous as those in countries where such protections do not exist your average employee in Germany is going to have a far less stressful life on account of this than elsewhere.

Freelancing all over Europe is best done through a business entity, it offers some basic liability protection and allows you to defer taxes.

Re: Croatia could be Europe's hidden tech haven in 2024

#54

Post by tadaima »

46d24 wrote: post #48
tadaima wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your numbers are plain wrong. France, Spain and Germany are at around 43%, worst case scenario. As someone who pays tax in one of these countries and manages/recruits people across all Europe (as well as Americas and Asia) I can confirm these calculators are very accurate. Taxes (incl. pension + unemployment + health insurance and other social contributions) for 200K euros annual salary, for a single, no-dependents e…

[dead]

I did not forget 25% social security. I listed taxes for the employee (as stated in my message).

If we look at total taxes and include taxes paid by the employer (fair point), your figures are still wrong, as these 3 countries still set a total tax burden inferior to 50%, far from the 70% you quote.

There is no VAT on wages/payroll, either in the UK or the EU (1)

The figures I quote include regional taxes in Germany and Spain which have them.

Taxes (incl. pension + unemployment + health insurance and other social contributions) on 200K euros annual gross salary, for a single, no-dependents employee (the most unfavourable situation)

Spain (2):

   Taxes [employee]: 81,915 EUR [40.96% of 200K EUR]

   Taxes [employer]: 15,596 EUR [45.13% of 215K EUR]

       ** the page you source is wrong for salaries over 55K EUR, see explanation at the bottom (3)
France (4):

   Taxes [employee]: 87,866 EUR [43.94% of 200K EUR]

   Taxes [employer]: 24,119 EUR [49.97% of 224K EUR]
Germany (5):

   Taxes [employee]: 86,439.33 EUR [43.22% of 200K EUR]

   Taxes [employer]: 15,078 EUR [47.20% of 215K EUR]
UK (6) [200K EUR = 172K GBP]:

   Taxes [employee]: 70,185 GBP [40.90% of 172K GBP]

   Taxes [employer]: 22,425 GBP [47.73% of 194K GBP]
(1) https://goselfemployed.co/is-there-vat-on-payroll/

    https://www.quora.com/Do-you-have-to-pay-VAT-on-an-employee-s-salary
(2) https://cincodias.elpais.com/herramientas/calculadora-irpf/

    https://es.talent.com/tax-calculator?salary=200000&from=year&region=Comunidad+de+Madrid
(3) In Spain, social insurance taxes (contingencias comunes) are calculated as 28.3% of 1.6K (min) to 4.5K (max) mensual income. Anything over that does not compute for that calculation. So the employer can at most pay 1080 EUR/mo (23.6%) and the employee 211 EUR (4.7%) a month as opposed to the 4K the page you source mentions

    https://loentiendo.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/bases-minima-maxima-cotizacion-seguridad-social-general-2023.png

    https://loentiendo.com/cotizacion-contingencias-comunes/
(4) https://www.urssaf.fr/portail/home/utile-et-pratique/estimat...

(5) https://www.brutto-netto-rechner.info/gehalt/gross_net_calcu...

    https://de.icalculator.com/employment-cost-calculator.html
(6) https://www.uktaxcalculators.co.uk/

(edited for clearer language)

Re: Croatia could be Europe's hidden tech haven in 2024

#55

Post by lostmsu »

tadaima wrote: post #54
46d24 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[dead]

I did not forget 25% social security. I listed taxes for the employee (as stated in my message). If we look at total taxes and include taxes paid by the employer (fair point), your figures are still wrong, as these 3 countries still set a total tax burden inferior to 50%, far from the 70% you quote. There is no VAT on wages/payroll, either in the UK or the EU (1) The figures I quote include regional taxes in Germany…

No, you need to count VAT that employee pays when they buy stuff.

There's a difference of that sort between Oregon and Washington states in US: Oregon has no VAT, but has state income tax (on top of federal) and WA has 10% VAT but no state income tax. In the end they come out approximately the same tax load.

E.g. taking Germany and Standard 19% VAT and the 86,4K/200K you mentioned you get about 95.4K left for prices before VAT (e.g. you can only buy 95,4 x 1K EUR (as seen in countries without VAT) iPads), which is already >50% in total tax. Now you remember you started with 215K EUR at the company and you get ~55% total tax.

Re: Croatia could be Europe's hidden tech haven in 2024

#56

Post by davidw »

RadixDLT wrote: post #33
davidw wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We went to Pula on vacation years ago and it really is a fascinating mix of a bunch of different things. There's a large Roman arena, the city center looks like it could be anywhere in northern Italy that was under Venice, there are Hapsburg buildings and then construction from the communist part of their history... it's really an impressive mix.

Pula lol

You ok dude?

Re: Croatia could be Europe's hidden tech haven in 2024

#57

Post by boomskats »

rightbyte wrote: post #11
boomskats wrote: post #7

As someone who has built and sold an original software startup in Serbia, and has followed the evolution of the local tech scene in the Balkans over the last decade pretty closely, the one thing the region absolutely needs more of is this kind of positive press. While there's been a fair bit written about the growth of the "IT Sector"[0] there, for the longest time that sector was mostly made up of outsourcers and bo…

> I've started to notice an increasing number of individuals at the top end of the talent spectrum Ye well they have to always have been there? Like, the "top talent" of Silicon Valley and their wages feels more like a medieval kind of guild, rather than actual top talent. With different arbitrary opaque admission ceremonies. I really don't understand why SWE wages are not flatter nationally in the US and also world…

> Ye well they have to always have been there?

Maybe their talent has, but not the experience. What I was trying to say is that those talented individuals have now accumulated the experience they need to be able to confidently make that leap to meaningful original tech startup, rather than just remaining as a resource in a body shop.

My comment didn't discuss anything about wages at an individual level. All I was doing is pointing out the dwindling commercial value of individuals within the outsourcing sector as they advance and approach the top end of the pay scale.

FWIW I'm personally pretty allergic to individuals from the region who steer every local tech discussion towards the subject of 'wages'. To me this is an indicator that the person got into tech because it pays better than other jobs, not because it is something that ever genuinely interested them. Again, it's a personal thing, but to me it's a red flag that tells me they are unlikely to push themselves to progress unless they're forced to, and will always be chasing a number.

OTOH if you can show me that you're truly driven by curiosity and love of tech, I'll make sure I pay you enough so that you never have to think about all those things you just mentioned in your comment.

Re: Croatia could be Europe's hidden tech haven in 2024

#58

Post by jacquesm »

lopis wrote: post #50
jacquesm wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And to some extent it is true, but fortunately Portugal is not so easy to overrun. The area in and around Cascais is very popular with 'expats' (aka immigrants). At 200K+ inhabitants it is large enough to have all facilities, quite warm and not so large that you get the trouble associated with large cities in the South of Europe. The fact that it always was fairly wealthy probably also helps.

The problem is that "expats" don't come create a tech haven. They come with remote jobs, earn good multiples of the local salaries, come increase rents, convert houses to temporary accommodation, fund the party scene, and then they leave. There has been no concrete signs of Lisbon becoming a "tech haven".

Yes, I made the rough equivalent of your post here:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38592222

But: the Cascais situation seems to be an exception to that because it's a fairly expensive place to live so that seems to ward off tech nomadism.

Re: Croatia could be Europe's hidden tech haven in 2024

#59

Post by woah »

jacquesm wrote: post #53
woah wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One quick example: Germany has a 3 month required severance period. So if you are doing something where funding may be uncertain, a German employee is somewhat risky. A startup in California that fails to raise funding can cut staff and take another swing in 6 months. In Germany, this is less likely. You could just budget for this up front and sock away 1/4 salary for every hire, but along with the employer taxes, th…

An alternative viewpoint for you to consider: Germany recognizes that employing someone is much more a risk for the employer than for the employee. So they protect the employee's interest. That there are countries where employees have fewer rights gives the employers in those countries and edge, but that's only because there is a 'race to the bottom' element here. In spite of all that Germany is an economic powerhous…

That's nice, just pointing out that German employment law gives large and predictable businesses an edge over small ones
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