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Bad NEWS, Emacs

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Re: Bad NEWS, Emacs

#51

Post by tom_ »

entropie wrote: post #17

> Since then, another bug report came in from a Emacs master branch user that suffered from one of the consequences of this change (a specific regression that I spelled out days before, but was ignored, for some reason), and several users reached out to the Emacs development in request to restore the previous behavior in an ongoing thread titled “Please, Restore Previous Behavior for jump-to-register”. Astonishingly,…

If you use this stuff a lot, it is totally going to suck. Some thing has changed, that may or may not have a good technical reason, that means that after years of the program training you into behaving one way (and it's not like this is some crazy workflow you've invented yourself, right - this is literally you following the documented process) you're now being punished for it by having it not work.

You wouldn't even treat your dog like this.

Re: Bad NEWS, Emacs

#52

Post by addicted »

entropie wrote: post #17

> Since then, another bug report came in from a Emacs master branch user that suffered from one of the consequences of this change (a specific regression that I spelled out days before, but was ignored, for some reason), and several users reached out to the Emacs development in request to restore the previous behavior in an ongoing thread titled “Please, Restore Previous Behavior for jump-to-register”. Astonishingly,…

I’m a VIM user, not an emacs user so I don’t have a dog in this fight, but if the equivalent change was made in VIM it would pretty much be unusable for me. My muscle memory related to this feature would be completely broken.

I can’t think of any such change in VIM being made without a setting to turn it off.

Re: Bad NEWS, Emacs

#53

Post by morelisp »

jsw97 wrote: post #44
tinus_hn wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

‘Default bindings’ sounds like it’s configurable to be different. Is it?

It is not. That approach was tried and rejected, hence the problem.

In the interest of fairness, it should be noted a very specific solution was tried and rejected (providing configuration variables to adjust the behavior of `register-read-with-preview`). I personally don't see anything preventing users from configuring alternate commands which call directly `set-register` and mapping those as they please, so in that sense it is still configurable. And in the extreme case you could even use advices, etc. It is very difficult to make something non-configurable in Emacs and I don't see the register system being so ingrained as to be one of those things.

Whether it's a good idea... well, I don't use registers but the whole thing seems like a bad idea to me. I don't think I know anyone who uses registers and would like the new behavior. (But I also understand the desire to modernize `register-read-with-preview` a bit. A better solution seems like it would be providing multiple implementations so users can do the register equivalent of `(fset #'yes-or-no-p #'y-or-n-p)` like every old Emacs user does today.)

Re: Bad NEWS, Emacs

#54

Post by CoastalCoder »

mixedmath wrote: post #33

I'll summarize my understanding. A commit that changes how copying (actually "registers", which is a bit more general than copying) works in emacs was recently accepted. Now emacs opens up a minibuffer that shows what is happening, requiring one to accept the change by hitting enter or equivalent. The OP thinks this is a terrible, breaking change as it changes default behavior (and possibly without the possibility of…

As a perpetually novice vim user, I actually would have expected "dyy" to mean Delete the current line.

But that probably just proves my novice status.

Re: Bad NEWS, Emacs

#55

Post by addicted »

CoastalCoder wrote: post #54
mixedmath wrote: post #33

I'll summarize my understanding. A commit that changes how copying (actually "registers", which is a bit more general than copying) works in emacs was recently accepted. Now emacs opens up a minibuffer that shows what is happening, requiring one to accept the change by hitting enter or equivalent. The OP thinks this is a terrible, breaking change as it changes default behavior (and possibly without the possibility of…

As a perpetually novice vim user, I actually would have expected "dyy" to mean Delete the current line. But that probably just proves my novice status.

You’re missing the double quote before the ‘d’ which means you’re talking about a register.

Re: Bad NEWS, Emacs

#56

Post by blantonl »

So, what's the "other side's" argument in this? Usually these opinionated changes come with some level-headed reasoning behind the changes. Or maybe not?

Re: Bad NEWS, Emacs

#57

Post by jonathanstrange »

smitty1e wrote: post #43
janice1999 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. As a developer I think breaking literally decades old workflows for users without notice or any level of concern is a bad thing. For a program with users so reliant on muscle memory, I think the impact is far worse.

The friction seemed less about the change as such as in the unilateral delivery. Even good change (whether or not this is) needs a gentle transition.

If I understood this correctly, the new behavior cannot be customized back to the old behavior. If that's true, then that's obviously very bad. Generally, as an Emacs user, I don't just want an opt-in or a gentle transition, I need to be able to customize everything to my needs.

Re: Bad NEWS, Emacs

#58

Post by binary132 »

pilgrim0 wrote: post #14

I don’t fully understand the nature/impact of the change but this conflict seems so minor to me. Like, people on both sides display the same level of entitlement but for different reasons, and they all think they have their are “right”. Hum, no, for outsiders you all appear stubborn and lacking ability to compromise. “Oh my gosh, I’ll have to press 1 extra key now, this project is doomed!”, “no no no, this little cha…

Social problems caused by intense and antisocial personalities? In MY free software project?

It’s more common than you think.

Re: Bad NEWS, Emacs

#60

Post by mynegation »

It’s been 20 years since I left Emacs, but I understand that this change is pretty disruptive. What I do not understand is why Emacs that prides itself in being the “kitchen sink” did not add an option to revert to the old behaviour.
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